Black spots on Pan F 120 - cause?

johnielvis · Apr 8, 2012

HEY....here's what I was looking for a year ago--I determined it was the film too--although when I brought out this problem to another photo online community, my results were poo poo'ed and the popular opinion was that I was to blame for the spot problem. Nice to see that other people have the exact same problem and have made the exact same determinations--it's the film.

I also suspected that it's a result of storage conditions/refrigeration, but I have nowhere near enough information on how my film was stored before I got it, so this is, at best, speculation.

HOWEVER--maybe it's something else--I got black spots on REVERSAL processed film. So if the spots are black in the negative AND black in the positive, then maybe it's something else.

I've also thought it maybe some gelatain globules with dark dye in them are seeping out or breaking free from the edges/corners of the film and going into the processing solution and thence adhering to the film surface--or something that causes teeny black particles to form in the processing (or be liberated) which adhere to the film and stick when drying.

Michael W · Apr 8, 2012

fotch said:
Have you tried exposing a roll in a regular camera to see if the spots are still there? Or develope a roll in other developer to see if the spots are still there? Just curious. I have 200 ft of bulk 35mm that I have to use and am interested in the outcome.

The first time I had the problem was in Rodinal & more recently it happened with Xtol, so there's two devs.
Both rolls were from a Zero Image pinhole camera, but there's nothing about pinhole that's going to make black spots appear across all frames. I've done multiple of rolls of Tmax 100, Tri-X and Portra 160 in the same camera with not even one spot. This was always 120 of course, I haven't heard about this happening on 35mm.

jameslattanzio · May 10, 2013

Black Spots on Pan F negatives

I just processed several rolls of 120 Pan F film that I had shot but did not process for about 5 years. They were kept in their boxes in my basement office, but not refrigerated.
The image quality was severely degraded and covered with black spots. I then tried processing rolls of Tri-X that were shot at the same time and kept under the same conditions.
The Tri-X didn't show any degradation of the image or have any black spots. Both processed in DD-X. Apparently Pan F does not hold up under long term storage.

tanzanite · Jun 21, 2013

I processed 10 rolls of Pan F+ 120 in Adox Adonal 1+50 at home and all the rolls having same spot, sample attached.

Ed Bray · Jun 21, 2013

tanzanite said:
I processed 10 rolls of Pan F+ 120 in Adox Adonal 1+50 at home and all the rolls having same spot, sample attached.

View attachment 70602 View attachment 70601

Very sexy lady, nice exposure too.

k_jupiter · Jun 22, 2013

Alessandro Serrao said:
Same problem here, Panf+ 35mm expired in 2008 and freezed ever since...
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Excuse me, that would be Freezedededid.

dr5chrome · Jun 29, 2013

..forget those 'poo-poo' replies! This condition is most definitely the film. ILFORD has never addressed this issue. We dont know what actually causes it, but suspect this happen to long cold stored film. Something in the paper is causing a reaction in the emulsion.

dw /dr5.com

johnielvis said:
HEY....here's what I was looking for a year ago--I determined it was the film too--although when I brought out this problem to another photo online community, my results were poo poo'ed and the popular opinion was that I was to blame for the spot problem. Nice to see that other people have the exact same problem and have made the exact same determinations--it's the film.

I also suspected that it's a result of storage conditions/refrigeration, but I have nowhere near enough information on how my film was stored before I got it, so this is, at best, speculation.

HOWEVER--maybe it's something else--I got black spots on REVERSAL processed film. So if the spots are black in the negative AND black in the positive, then maybe it's something else.

I've also thought it maybe some gelatain globules with dark dye in them are seeping out or breaking free from the edges/corners of the film and going into the processing solution and thence adhering to the film surface--or something that causes teeny black particles to form in the processing (or be liberated) which adhere to the film and stick when drying.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 1, 2013

I think Dr.5 is onto something - storage conditions.

It would be simple to see by taking some rolls of Pan-F+ in 35mm and 120, some protected from moisture, and others not, stick them in a freezer for a couple of years, and then test them.

As a general rule I do not freeze or cold store my film. I just keep it in the basement, protected from moisture, and I usually don't have more than 50 rolls of either 120 or 35mm at any given time, so that I rotate my inventory often. I haven't shot a lot of Ilford film in my life, it's been mostly Kodak, but the films that I have had problems with were those that had been frozen for a long time (by others). Some of it was Pan-F+, some of it was Agfa APX 25, and some Efke 100.

Good luck to you all in solving this. I recommend Ilford uses Simon Galley to collect samples from those that are having problems, maybe even exchange a few rolls of long time frozen film for fresh film - and run some tests... A logistical challenge and nightmare, but the remedy could be as simple as having defined recommendations of how to store the film.

zolac · Aug 21, 2016

I think I found the problem: the protective paper has been changed it is more granular and when making long time exposure the paper refers to the light and brand the film here is a picture of the difference between the two papers

Chris Livsey · Aug 21, 2016

Thank you for updating this thread. However the effect of the backing paper over time or poor storage will not show the spots complained of here. That effect looks like this on HP5+ 120, which you will note matches the "pattern" on the paper you show:

pentaxpete · Aug 21, 2016

I had one case of Pan F Spots -- it was dated 1978 and been in fridge for years -- I think it could be the backing paper reacting -- I used MK35 Formula ( a 'Single-Solution Beutler ) formula I made up myself. Camera was a 2002 Hasselblad 501CM + 80mm f2.8 CFE Planar.

Modern London by Peter Elgar, on Flickr

zolac · Aug 21, 2016

In my case:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8461/29035214361_8709516dc6_c.jpg

bvy · Aug 21, 2016

zolac said:
I think I found the problem: the protective paper has been changed it is more granular and when making long time exposure the paper refers to the light and brand the film here is a picture of the difference between the two papers

Are you suggesting that the grain patter on the right is due to the backing paper? I would beg to differ. That grain structure is characteristic of the emulsion (regardless of format). I've gotten similar results on Pan F in Diafine, 35mm.

zolac · Aug 21, 2016

It is a comparison between protection papers. that's the only difference I found between films that I used before and those that pose a problem today.

Chris Livsey · Aug 21, 2016

zolac said:
In my case:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8461/29035214361_8709516dc6_c.jpg

That's an infestation of spots

zolac · Aug 21, 2016

Really

Gerald C Koch · Aug 28, 2016

I have seen spotting with old or improperly stored roll film although most samples have larger spots. It seems to be associated with the film backing paper.

Elias · Mar 26, 2017

For the first time in +30 years of darkroom, I experienced lots of black spots on films, whatever the film make or format, on roll films and sheet films. Obviously all those negatives were absolutely useless and ruined, with no clear explanation as I had not changed my process.

After checking all the obvious and more dubious sources of contamination throughout the process, the very last on my list was the wetting agent, normally a reliable old friend....
The bottle was a few years old and proved to be the culprit, films dried w/out the help of the wetting agent being absolutely clean, except for a few expected drying marks. Swapping for a brand new wetting agent solved completely and immediately my problem.

Hope this helps

Black spots on Pan F 120 - cause?

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