Black spots on Pan F 120 - cause?

Michael W · Aug 14, 2011

michaelbsc said:
Do the spots appear on the leader and tail?

Or only within the image frame?

Only in the image. Unexposed areas are clear.

Michael W · Aug 14, 2011

Had a PM from someone who knows what they are talking about who agrees it is nothing to do with the water. Suggests the Rodinal (Adonal) is to blame.

Monito · Aug 14, 2011

Michael W said:
Only in the image. Unexposed areas are clear.

Your camera chamber is contaminated with clouds of developer dust? Hmm.

... OR ... Check very carefully any areas of the film outside of the images that are a little gray or a lot gray but not black. For example if the leader black shades to gray over the space of a few millimeters, check there very carefully to see if there are spots. And check any pressure streaks or crimp fog or light fog and check at the edges of the numbers and edge markings.

If the dots are not in any unexposed areas, then it is very localized over development of silver.

Are there clouds of developer dust in the darkroom air? Unlikely.

Check the developer to see if it is perfectly clear or if there is sediment that gets stirred up or specks that are suspended almost colloidally. Also, check the developer after it is fully diluted, too.

trexx · Aug 14, 2011

This is typical in Pinhole photography

My first post, way back at the start should have been
"This look like light scatter in Pinhole photography, was this a pinhole?"

I thought it, and should have added it to my questions of processing. When I was doing a lot of pinhole I saw them all the time. Even in when not pointed at a strong light source.

One thing maybe to prove this to you is that you can find the same pattern on different frames. Now one roll may not be enough to see, But on the hundreds of pinhole frames I have done I could see similar patters of black spots.

Rick A · Aug 14, 2011

If you suspect the Rodinal, mix 100ml at 1+25 with your tap water, then strain through a coffee filter and check it for sediment. If you have to, you can let it dry and scan the filter to check it.

michaelbsc · Aug 14, 2011

Michael W said:
Only in the image. Unexposed areas are clear.

Ok, then the observation is that random spots in the image appear to have experienced hyperdevelopment of a currently unexplained origin.

Places with little or no latent image have little effect, while areas with significant exposure exhibit significant effect.

Or, as you originally said, it is proportional to density.

Correct?

Michael W · Aug 14, 2011

michaelbsc said:
Ok, then the observation is that random spots in the image appear to have experienced hyperdevelopment of a currently unexplained origin.

Places with little or no latent image have little effect, while areas with significant exposure exhibit significant effect.

Or, as you originally said, it is proportional to density.

Correct?

Yes, that's correct.
I think my suggestion of stop bath being a possible cause was a red herring. I only mentioned it because I never use acid stop and only decided to on a whim so when I saw the spots I thought it might be a factor.
It's something about the developer. It was a newly opened bottle of Adox Adonal from the batch that landed in Sydney a couple of weeks ago. Diluted 1:50, normal inversion agitation in a Paterson tank. The PM I received said that Rodinal type developers are known to do this.

Monito · Aug 15, 2011

trexx said:
My first post, way back at the start should have been
"This look like light scatter in Pinhole photography, was this a pinhole?"

I thought it, and should have added it to my questions of processing. When I was doing a lot of pinhole I saw them all the time. Even in when not pointed at a strong light source.

One thing maybe to prove this to you is that you can find the same pattern on different frames. Now one roll may not be enough to see, But on the hundreds of pinhole frames I have done I could see similar patters of black spots.

How might this occur?

Finely suspended dust particles inside the camera imaged by the infinite depth of field of the pinhole and reflecting light, like dust in beams of sunlight?

Less than perfectly smooth edges of the pinhole?

The first would lead to varying patterns, the second (if operative) would lead to identical patterns from picture to picture (when conditions bring it out). Your post was ambiguous. Are you saying the patterns of dots are in the same position from picture to picture (when conditions are right to create them)?

trexx · Aug 15, 2011

Monito said:
How might this occur?

Finely suspended dust particles inside the camera imaged by the infinite depth of field of the pinhole and reflecting light, like dust in beams of sunlight?

no

Less than perfectly smooth edges of the pinhole?

Yes and nothing can be perfectly smooth. When I make pinhole with the dimple and sand method these patterns are easily seen. With my Zero Image it is less evident, but can still be seen.

The first would lead to varying patterns, the second (if operative) would lead to identical patterns from picture to picture (when conditions bring it out).

yes, flares around highlights will produce similar patterns. I think this is called diffraction.

Your post was ambiguous. Are you saying the patterns of dots are in the same position from picture to picture (when conditions are right to create them)?

Yes similarities in these patterns can be seen. Not necessarily the exact dot pattern, dot for dot in the same place. Sometime a ray of dots that varies in density, or a cloud of dots taking on the same shape.

Sorry that I cannot explain better, this is only from observation, no scientific rigor on my part.

Simon R Galley · Aug 15, 2011

Dear Michael W,

Firstly, I do not know if anyone from HARMAN has come back to you yet, regardless its not a problem, I will sort it.

I have checked if we have any QC's pending, we have none on any film at present. I have seen 'black spot' before and it can have various causes, never say never but I can virtually guarantee its not the film, but we need it back at the factory to make absolutely sure, and check it under the electron microscope to explain what actually caused it, and what it is.

As to PAN F+ being 'fragile'..... I do not know where that came from, PAN F+ is not fragile, I do know all the manufacturing parameters regarding the physical structure and performance of our films and PAN F+ is as robust as all our other emulsions.

So please pm me with your details : And send the exposed film to us in the UK marked for my attention and I will ensure tech service look at it for you, and of course give you an explanation

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN tcehnology Limited :

Michael W · Aug 15, 2011

Hi Simon, good to hear from you. I will PM to organise sending the film.

Monito · Aug 15, 2011

Thanks trexx for the clarifications and the greater detail of your experience. I find it very interesting the myriad ways that inaminate objects have of perversely injecting anomalies into our best efforts!

Based on trexx's posts and Simon's post, I would say that the pinhole issue is the leading suspect currently.

michaelbsc · Aug 15, 2011

Monito said:
Thanks trexx for the clarifications and the greater detail of your experience. I find it very interesting the myriad ways that inaminate objects have of perversely injecting anomalies into our best efforts!

Based on trexx's posts and Simon's post, I would say that the pinhole issue is the leading suspect currently.

Ok, then there is a mechanism which can produce localized excessive exposure when using a pinhole? And rather than over development this may be a case of exposure anomolies?

Assuming this is in keeping with Simon's finding, can anyone explain the phenomena in a way that we can exploit it or avoid it?

Ian C · Aug 15, 2011

Your black spots might be related to pepper fogging. This is reportedly more often seen in the development of lith films and in lith printing, aerographic films, but might also be seen in regular films as well. I also found a reference to it happening with the now obsolete Kodak HIE film, but I suppose it could happen with any film under the right circumstances.

Its related to the process, not the film. The developer might be a suspect.

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Pepper_Fog_Spots.htm

Ronald Moravec · Aug 15, 2011

Look at the bottom of your fix bottle. Silver precipitates out from used fix starting in a day or so. They appear mostly as flakes , not round spots although some are round. They stick to the next film like glue, more to the denser area, but can be abraded off carefully if film is still wet. Once dry , forget it.

I have never found a home filtering procedure to remove the silver perfectly. Bounty brand towels quartered in a funnel will filter off the bigger pieces. MUST be Bounty, nothing else.

I never reuse fix on important film and I do filter and use it up on test prints.

Get a glass bottle and clean it out and use it for fix.

Michael W · Aug 15, 2011

Monito said:
Thanks trexx for the clarifications and the greater detail of your experience. I find it very interesting the myriad ways that inaminate objects have of perversely injecting anomalies into our best efforts!

Based on trexx's posts and Simon's post, I would say that the pinhole issue is the leading suspect currently.

I've shot multiple rolls of B&W and colour in this pinhole camera and have never seen those spots before. I have also re-shot in the same environment where I had this problem and the spots are not present on that roll. I'd say it's a developer problem.
I am familiar with solar flare in pinhole photography when shooting into the light. It looks a bit like lens flare but that's not what is happening on the roll of film in question.

Monito · Aug 15, 2011

Well, please follow up and let us know the resolution of this mystery when you get it. You got my curiosity going.

dr5chrome · Aug 15, 2011

film problem

NOT development.

We see this very problem with PAN-f regularly and have brought it to ILFORDS attention on several occasions, to '0' reply. This problem can occur with all the ILFORD films but is most seen in the PAN-f. Because dr5 is enhancing 4~5x the negative counterpart, issues such as this are seen more clearly, but can be seen very well in film that is severely damaged, neg or dr5.

What we have determined is, that this is a storage or moisture issue. It mostly happens with the 120 film and we think the spots are paper related. Spotting can happen with 35 as well but they look different. If an un-sealed roll is put back into a cold-store, shot, fresh or old-film, the moisture will cause this spotting. PAN-f is the most susceptible to the problem. In most cases when a client of ours has this problem, this scenario occurred. This is what happened to your PAN-f.

We have been willing to give ILFORD our feedback over the years, good, bad and constructive, but they do not give dr5 the time of day.

regards - dr5

Simon R Galley · Aug 16, 2011

Dear Dr5,

Firstly, I apologise if you have not been contacted, I have always read your posts and can clearly understand that you are very knowledgeable and very passionate about monochrome, so we share that outlook, I can assure you the next time I am in the USA I will visit with you.

As to 'black spot' I am sure you can imagine I was concerned at your assumptions. This morning I have spoken to our QC department and obtained the worldwide statistics relating to PAN F + ( 35mm and 120 )

We have received :

2011 Year to date 1 Complaint
2010 1 Complaint
2009 4 Complaints
2008 2 Complaints

So in the last 3 years and 8 months of sales worldwide you can see that we have had 8 complaints :

Of those 8 complaints 5 Were Justified
1 Cause not certain
2 Not justified

I cannot therefore, respectfully agree that PAN F + has a problem. As to this customers issue he is returning a sample to us and once it is examined under the electron microscope by our QC team we will give him ( as we give all our customers ) an official reply.

'Black Spot' as I am sure you realise is a problem sometimes seen in 'home processing' due to suspended particulates in the developer, either from the mixing water or from undissolved or 'foreign' particulates in the actual raw chemicals, it tends to be much more common when powder developers are used.

Finally, your assumption that it could be caused by moisture actually on the film or on the backing strip I cannot really comment on other than :

1) Film that is cool strored or frozen must be protected from moisture.

2) Once film is exposed it should be processed quickly and not put back into cold store ( unless in exceptional circumstances and again protected from moisture ).

3) If moisture was introduced to a film ( or via the backing paper onto 120 film ) I would not expect to see 'black spot' or pinpricks I would expect to see a fairly 'random' mottle effect after development that I cannot see would would induce multiple pinpricks in the emulsion.

Kind Regards

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Michael W · Aug 16, 2011

I'm clipping a frame and posting to Simon at Ilford tomorrow. In regards to moisture, cold storage etc, the details with this film are that I bought it from B&H and it hasn't been in the fridge before or after exposure. It was exposed in a wooden pinhole camera over about 5 days and some of those days had extremely heavy rain in Sydney. The camera never got wet but the humidity would have been pretty high. I processed the film within a day or so of finishing the roll. Didn't notice the spots for a couple of days and by then the backing paper had gone in the rubbish so I had no chance to inspect that. I appreciate Simon's assistance with this and will wait to hear something in due course.

dr5chrome · Aug 17, 2011

SPOTTING

We are not here to bash ILFORD. ..just in reply to a problem that has never been addressed, be it condition or the film it self.

We process much of this film, in dr5 and in it's native neg form. The ILFORD films perform best in dr5 in my opinion, but that's just me. Likely many of our clients would agree.

The below links were memorable. a very high-end client with many rolls of PAN-f, ALL ruined because of this spotting. Along with his rolls were several other-clients rolls of PAN-f with no spotting. This condition was new to us at the time [years ago], and we pulled our hair out trying to figure out if it was the process causing it, or the film. ILFORD was of no help simply because they do not acknowledge dr5 as viable. We assumed they just blamed the processing. In the end, our client saw that it was the film and stopped using the film-type, especially when he-himself could not get a reply from ILFORD.

When we fired up our neg-line, this condition was also there from time to time.

If ILFORD helps you with this problem I would be interested in seeing what they have to say. In 10+ years they have not addressed this issue for us, and we are a lab that processes 1000s of rolls of ILFORD films a year. HP5 actually is our highest volume film. [note - the link-files are big. #2 shows the spots]

http://www.dr5.com/noname.jpg
http://www.dr5.com/noname2.jpg

best regards - dr5

georg16nik · Apr 8, 2012

So, after 5 pages and 6 months, was the case resolved?

Michael W · Apr 8, 2012

It took awhile; I sent the film to Ilford & eventually they sent it back to me and said they couldn't explain the spots. They also sent some fresh rolls of Pan F 120 and I've exposed and processed a few in Rodinal with no problems. This is 2014 expiry. Recently I processed one of the older 2013 rolls in Xtol and had the same spots. I have one sealed roll from this batch and I'm planning to post that to Ilford. i wonder if I'm the only one who's had this problem?

fotch · Apr 8, 2012

Michael W said:
It took awhile; I sent the film to Ilford & eventually they sent it back to me and said they couldn't explain the spots. They also sent some fresh rolls of Pan F 120 and I've exposed and processed a few in Rodinal with no problems. This is 2014 expiry. Recently I processed one of the older 2013 rolls in Xtol and had the same spots. I have one sealed roll from this batch and I'm planning to post that to Ilford. i wonder if I'm the only one who's had this problem?

Have you tried exposing a roll in a regular camera to see if the spots are still there? Or develope a roll in other developer to see if the spots are still there? Just curious. I have 200 ft of bulk 35mm that I have to use and am interested in the outcome.

georg16nik · Apr 8, 2012

Thanks, Michael!
Recently I've found Pan F 120 with exp Jan, 2013, I forgot had it in my fridge, so remembered this thread and decided to check in before I develop the film.
I was thinking about Rodinal but I might settle to Tetenal Neofin Blue or Ultrafine.

btw: mine is 64CPY7X01/02/JAN 2013, so if it turns out we are having from the same batch, I can send an unopened one to Ilford to compare

Thanks again,
Georg

Black spots on Pan F 120 - cause?

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