Black specks in developer after developing film

[What About Bob]

As they say there is always a first time for everything. This is what I witnessed while pouring my developer back into its graduate after developing. Anybody have an idea what those black specks are all about?

I mixed up some D23 four days ago. The D23 looked fine before it entered the tank. I shot a roll of Kentmere 100 in 120 format for the first time today. The film is now being hung to dry. I will not know if the specks could have done any harm. The exposures look good, at least.

There wasn't an entry at the MDC for Kentmere using D23 so I used the D76 times, like I did in the last session with the FP4 plus, and gave a 9 minute developing time instead of 11.5 because I exposed Kentmere at 50.

 

[koraks]

Anybody have an idea what those black specks are all about?

You'd have to inspect them closely to figure out what they are. A loupe or microscope would help.
Another part of the process would be to go through all the materials the liquid has been in touch with and determine whether it might have shed particulate matter. Think of encrusted dried up chemistry on old and reused tanks or bottles.

 

[Todd Niccole]

Did you previously use the bottle for fixer? I vaguely remember something similar eons ago and determined it was residual gunk in the bottle that was previous used for fixer despite being washed out.

 

[retina_restoration]

Did you previously use the bottle for fixer? I vaguely remember something similar eons ago and determined it was residual gunk in the bottle that was previous used for fixer despite being washed out.

Good point. Don't re-use bottles that have been used for ANY other chemistry except developers. I recall you previously stating that you were storing the chemistry in plastic bottles, is that right? I dislike plastic storage for developers, as chemistry tends to bind to the plastic and it can be difficult to clean the insides of the containers. However, if you wet a few cotton balls, toss them in the bottle and add some dish detergent, then cap it and shake the bottle aggressively in all directions then you can fairly effectively "scrub out" the interior before adding new chemistry. Sometimes just wet cotton balls alone will do that job.

That said, I recommend brown glass bottle for storing developers.

I also have to wonder if your "well aged" Metol is creating some kind of precipitate. At least it gave you usable negatives (presumably).

 

[What About Bob]

Did you previously use the bottle for fixer? I vaguely remember something similar eons ago and determined it was residual gunk in the bottle that was previous used for fixer despite being washed out.

Once I place a chemical in a bottle, no other chemical gets used in that bottle.

 

[What About Bob]

Good point. Don't re-use bottles that have been used for ANY other chemistry except developers. I recall you previously stating that you were storing the chemistry in plastic bottles, is that right? I dislike plastic storage for developers, as chemistry tends to bind to the plastic and it can be difficult to clean the insides of the containers. However, if you wet a few cotton balls, toss them in the bottle and add some dish detergent, then cap it and shake the bottle aggressively in all directions then you can fairly effectively "scrub out" the interior before adding new chemistry. Sometimes just wet cotton balls alone will do that job.

That said, I recommend brown glass bottle for storing developers.

I also have to wonder if your "well aged" Metol is creating some kind of precipitate. At least it gave you usable negatives (presumably).

Yes brown plastic bottles. The bottles that I am using for storing this first batch of D23, stop and fixer were new. They were rinsed out with water and dried before use. This would be the second film run since this last Monday. The first run went fine. I will be looking into glass.

The condition of the metol came to mind I will be developing another roll later on. I held off printing last night because I wanted to shoot another roll so that I had more for printing.

The negatives look OK through a magnifier but we will see when it comes to printing. Crossing fingers.

 

[retina_restoration]

Yes brown plastic bottles. The bottles that I am using for storing this first batch of D23, stop and fixer were new. They were rinsed out with water and dried before use. This would be the second film run since this last Monday. The first run went fine. I will be looking into glass.

The condition of the metol came to mind I will be developing another roll later on. I held off printing last night because I wanted to shoot another roll so that I had more for printing.

The negatives look OK through a magnifier but we will see when it comes to printing. Crossing fingers.

So, you are using D-23 as stock (not diluted) developer and returning it to the bottle for re-use? If so, it's not surprising that there may be some precipitate in the saved developer. Use coffee filters and filter it out.
If you are saving it and re-using it, you need to replenish it after the first roll and for every subsequent roll. There is a technique for this.

 

[What About Bob]

So, you are using D-23 as stock (not diluted) developer and returning it to the bottle for re-use? If so, it's not surprising that there may be some precipitate in the saved developer. Use coffee filters and filter it out.
If you are saving it and re-using it, you need to replenish it after the first roll and for every subsequent roll. There is a technique for this.

D23 1:1 250ml water to 250ml developer. One shot use. I was thinking of replenishing but I am not developing at high volume.

I used up one of the 500ml bottles, one more to go. After mixing the liter of D23 on Monday I split the stock solution into 2 - 500ml bottles.

 

[What About Bob]

Going back out to shoot another roll of kentmere 100. This time at box speed. I will keep updated.

Also would like to note that I am using distilled water to mix all of my chemicals.

 

[What About Bob]

Thanks retina for the link to John's site. I like John Finch's videos

 

[retina_restoration]

D23 1:1 250ml water to 250ml developer. One shot use. I was thinking of replenishing but I am not developing at high volume.

I used up one of the 500ml bottles, one more to go. After mixing the liter of D23 on Monday I split the stock solution into 2 - 500ml bottles.

Good. I'm sure there are some who believe the replenishment D-23 approach is better, but I've always preferred 1:1 dilution because it will give consistent, predictable results. For replenishment, you really have to know what you're doing and it's not the most beginner friendly way to go. D-23 is so cheap. Make it new, often, and dilute for best results.

 

[pentaxuser]

Going back out to shoot another roll of kentmere 100. This time at box speed. I will keep updated.

Also would like to note that I am using distilled water to mix all of my chemicals.

That may be the only way to discover what the problem of the black specks are. If the negs look OK it suggests something external to either the film or the developer such as the backing paper or less likely, some dregs left in the tank previously

pentaxuser

 

[What About Bob]

Huh

Black specks again but not as much as the last time.

The only thing I can do now is shoot a roll of something else and process that and see what happens I don't have any FP4 left so Pan F it will have to be.

Last Monday I started off with mixing D23 to make 1 liter of stock solution. I split the liter solution into 2 - 500ml brown plastic bottles. This gives me four development runs, using D23 at 1:1.

The first developing run with the D23 was used on FP4 plus and there were no black specks after development when I returned the developer to its graduate. The second and third film runs were used on Kentmere 100 and there were black specks after returning the developer to its graduate. If this fourth run with Pan F plus ends up showing no specks after development then I would conclude that something could be up with the Kentmere film that I have. If specks do show up then there is something else wrong.

I checked the paper backing on each of the Kentmere films I have processed. There are no chips, rips or any irregularities that I could see.

I was thinking that the metol that I recently bought may have been a factor because it was tinted slightly brownish with a few clumps here and there. However, the first film run with FP4 didn't show any black specks after development. I do not interchange chemicals into other bottles that had been used for other chemicals. I use distilled water for all of the chemicals I use.

I am going to delay my printing for one more day. I will process a roll of Pan F. I will then have more rolls to print by and can assess the results.

I will keep updated on this.

 

[koraks]

Emulsion flakes

Easy enough to verify. The film would have to show damage if this were the case, which I personally don't think.

 

[retina_restoration]

Emulsion flakes

Extremely unlikely. I've never heard of the emulsion being dissolved by the developer, especially not one as simple as D-23.

 

[koraks]

If it's in the leader, which is usually cut ouf, it can really be.

It's theoretically possible, but exceedingly unlikely. Gelatin emulsions don't easily flake at all. When they dislodge from the film base, you never end up with this kind of particle geometry. Getting the emulsion to lift from modern film is practically impossible in a regular b&w negative development process.

 

[retina_restoration]

A quick search on the net reveals that emulsion flaking is possible even in a regular developer

https://www.google.com/search?q=pho...HUp4AdMQrQIoBHoECBEQBQ&biw=1440&bih=747&dpr=1

When you do a general search of all possible sources on the web, you get a load of data that lacks context. In most cases, you have no idea what the user may have done (or done wrong) with their film to get the results discussed. I've known people to dump stop bath straight out of the bottle (IE: undiluted!) into the tank and then post their bad results, but failed (at first) to disclose their error. You just don't know the whole picture when reviewing these reports. I read some of this stuff and found most of it was unhelpful and rarely of diagnostic value.

I'm not saying it is impossible for a roll of film to "shed flakes of emulsion", but it is extremely unlikely to happen.

I will point out that unless Bob finds flaws in his negatives when scanning/printing them, then these flecks in the used developer are unlikely anything to be concerned about. I suggest Bob get some fresh Metol and try again.

Oh, and do a test where you use plain water as the stop bath, eliminating an acid stop.

 

[What About Bob]

I just got back from the blizzard. Well, maybe not a blizzard; just the first scene of real snow here Wind and snow all over the place.

I will be processing the Pan F roll with the last amount of D23 in the bottle. Waiting for the camera bag to warm up to room temperature before opening it to get to the film.The bag is well cushioned.

I did some rush shots of some buildings downtown and the fruit store that is like my second home. Right at the last shot, across the street from the fruit store, I backed up and fell right into a snow bank with my TLR, lol. Good thing there weren't any people around. What ever it takes to get the shot.

I looked over the last two negatives. There is one very tiny clear spot on a flower pot that looks sort of film base clear. It may be nothing. Now I will need to return to the greenhouse tomorrow and see if that flower pot has such a mark on it. Other than that the rest of the negatives look fine.

 

[What About Bob]

Done developing the Pan F film.

Looks like the same amount of specks from the last session. This tells me that something is wrong on my end.

1st film run with FP4 plus - No specks
2nd film run with Kentmere 100 - Lots of specks, end of bottle #1
3rd film run with Kentmere 100 - Very little bit of specks
4th film run with Pan F plus - Very little bit of specks, end of bottle #2

I even checked the bottle caps and the threads of the bottles to see if there were any chips or anything and there aren't any.

For now I am going to hold off with film developing until I can get a new batch of chemistry.

 

[retina_restoration]

Done developing the Pan F film.

Looks like the same amount of specks from the last session. This tells me that something is wrong on my end.

1st film run with FP4 plus - No specks
2nd film run with Kentmere 100 - Lots of specks, end of bottle #1
3rd film run with Kentmere 100 - Very little bit of specks
4th film run with Pan F plus - Very little bit of specks, end of bottle #2

I even checked the bottle caps and the threads of the bottles to see if there were any chips or anything and there aren't any.

For now I am going to hold off with film developing until I can get a new batch of chemistry.

As long as 1) you get a well developed negative and 2) none of the black stuff ends up on the film, I wouldn't fret too much about this issue. There could be contaminants in your sulfite as well, so it may not be the aged Metol at fault. You won't really know until you've sourced fresh chemicals. (Get thee to ArtCraft!)

 

[250swb]

I'm with @retina_restoration, emulsion flakes are almost impossible unless something else has gone catastrophically wrong along the way. For any small amount of film processed at a time do not store and reuse diluted developer, throw it and mix some more next time. Replenishing and re-using is for people who have daily trips to the darkroom and ideally use deep tanks. Find a developer that you like that can be mixed fresh for each new batch and you'll find it's more economical based on reliability if not base cost. Film is too expensive to cheap out on developer, you'd be better cheaping out on the film stock by going Kentmere instead of Ilford if cost is a factor.

 

[What About Bob]

As long as 1) you get a well developed negative and 2) none of the black stuff ends up on the film, I wouldn't fret too much about this issue. There could be contaminants in your sulfite as well, so it may not be the aged Metol at fault. You won't really know until you've sourced fresh chemicals. (Get thee to ArtCraft!)

That will be the place to go for anything chemical. I will be placing an order there soon.

 

[What About Bob]

I'm with @retina_restoration, emulsion flakes are almost impossible unless something else has gone catastrophically wrong along the way. For any small amount of film processed at a time do not store and reuse diluted developer, throw it and mix some more next time. Replenishing and re-using is for people who have daily trips to the darkroom and ideally use deep tanks. Find a developer that you like that can be mixed fresh for each new batch and you'll find it's more economical based on reliability if not base cost. Film is too expensive to cheap out on developer, you'd be better cheaping out on the film stock by going Kentmere instead of Ilford if cost is a factor.

D23 at 1:1. I am really liking this developer. When I get the metaborate I will try the D23 two-bath.

 

[foc]

@What About Bob, I was wondering, could the problem be related to the 120 film/backing paper tape?

Do you tear the film from the backing paper or cut the film leaving the tape attached to the backing paper?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree???

 

[Sharktooth]

If you're using a black plastic tank, check for abrasion marks around the inside of the tank, lid, and center column. Maybe something is rubbing and abrading the plastic somewhere.