Black/silver spots/pock marks on front and back of fiber based prints

[fugitivehalide]

Any insights/help would be much appreciated on
a) what is causing these spots (see photos below) and b) how to remove them?

Working with Ilford multigrade IV paper, Ilford multigrade developer, Kodak indicator stop, Ilford rapid fix 1:9.

I am thinking it may be related to too much time in an exhausted fix bath? Would a second fix with fresh fixer remove the spots?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

The dark spots seem to be developed-out silver from what I can gather from your photos.

This means that something is causing those small areas to develop, either contamination or solids in the developer. Filter your developer and see if there are any precipitates in it. If not, it's probably damage to the emulsion caused by contamination or poor storage or...

Doremus

 

[Patrick Robert James]

When do the spots show up? After the developer? After the fix? Later?

How long are you using your chems for? Not a great idea to reuse fix. I dump the fix after every printing session. I never save it. Developer can be reused a few times depending on how many prints you put through it. Fresh chems are always best though. You'll waste a lot of money in paper with old chemistry. Not worth it.

 

[fugitivehalide]

I’ve been noticing them after the fix. fix is fine when I check it with hypofix.

Have tried swapping out chemicals, and have had this same issue in different darkrooms with different equipment/chemistry.

Viewing the prints from the back side, with light behind them, I noticed the dark spots will actually look light - like salt spots. See image below, of the back side of a print, with light shining through it from the emulsion side.

 

[john_s]

I’ve been noticing them after the fix. fix is fine when I check it with hypofix.

Have tried swapping out chemicals, and have had this same issue in different darkrooms with different equipment/chemistry.

Viewing the prints from the back side, with light behind them, I noticed the dark spots will actually look light - like salt spots. See image below, of the back side of a print, with light shining through it from the emulsion side.

The usual course of investigation is to change one variable at a time. If you've had the same problem with "different darkrooms with different equipment/chemistry" then maybe you have paper that has something wrong with it. A previous poster has suggested that. Try a different batch of paper. Let us know.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Even expended fixer can eat at prints left in the hypo for too long. Leave the prints in water for long times instead, if necessary.

 

[gone]

What Sirius said, the longer the better, or as long as those papers can take it. And John's advice to try one thing at a time is excellent. Otherwise, you won't know what's going on.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

You may have fixer that has precipitated small suspended flecks of sulfur in it. This happens with oxidation over time (i.e., the fixer is too old) and may not really greatly affect the ability of the fixer to do its job. Still, you end up with specks of sulfur stuck to your print, which are difficult if not impossible to remove.

So, you can try filtering the fixer and then adding some sodium sulfite to it to help slow the oxidation, or you can simply toss it and get fresh fix. I'd do the latter.

Best,

Doremus

 

[wmjohnson]

Just had the same thing happen to me and DEFINITELY a problem with paper not chem or user error. Used the remainder of a box of glossy MGFB, totally fine, about 7 sheets in ALL fresh chem and clean trays. Used about 5 sheets out of a box from end of last year and same spots you had, mostly on back. Switched to another older box and it had NO spots. Same thing too with them fading as the paper dries. Hopefully get another box from them or B&H.

 

[ooze]

Check out this link: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/dark-spots-on-the-back-of-print.198469/#post-2667507

 

[wmjohnson]

Check out this link: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/dark-spots-on-the-back-of-print.198469/#post-2667507

Thanks! Still sorta worried since these are for a print job and pretty expensive prints, I mean how the hell they know it doesn't hurt archival stability, I'd it's only a handful of years old...

 

[esmphoto]

Just got hit with this. Last night I printed and fixed a series of 5x7s. I turned back to the prints a few minutes later (sitting in a holding tray of clean water) and most (but not all) were all spotted.

I suspected under-fixing (though that has _never_ been a problem before), so I re-fixed. Still spots. So, despite hypo check saying it was good, I threw out the fix and the prints, resigned to creating new fix this morning and re-printing everything.

I kept a couple of the prints that had spots, just to see how they would look after dry-down, and lo and behold, spots are gone this morning.

---

So, like, is this bonkers? I mean, spots _all over_ a print that appear a few minutes after fixing. I don't understand how Ilford would be OK with this.

1. How can you evaluate the print (wet) when it is covered with spots?
2. And as wmjohnson points out, how do they know whether it affects archival stability, when they've only been doing this for 5 years?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Just got hit with this. Last night I printed and fixed a series of 5x7s. I turned back to the prints a few minutes later (sitting in a holding tray of clean water) and most (but not all) were all spotted.

I suspected under-fixing (though that has _never_ been a problem before), so I re-fixed. Still spots. So, despite hypo check saying it was good, I threw out the fix and the prints, resigned to creating new fix this morning and re-printing everything.

I kept a couple of the prints that had spots, just to see how they would look after dry-down, and lo and behold, spots are gone this morning.

---

So, like, is this bonkers? I mean, spots _all over_ a print that appear a few minutes after fixing. I don't understand how Ilford would be OK with this.

1. How can you evaluate the print (wet) when it is covered with spots?
2. And as wmjohnson points out, how do they know whether it affects archival stability, when they've only been doing this for 5 years?

Welcome to APUG Photrio!!​

 

[-chrille-]

I also got grey spots both on back of the paper and on the emulsion side during a session today. I used Ilford MG fiber paper glossy, 18x24cm. Developer used was Ilford Multigrade, stop bath Tetenal and fixer Adox Adofix. Developer and fix one shot. The stop bath was reused.

The prints looked good after fixing and the spots must have formed during washing.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I get spots on prints occasionally, usually on the back, from deposits in the developer tray. Keeping the developer tray clean(er) had ameliorated the problem somewhat. I don't get spots on the front, though.

I'm guessing it is either residue from something, in which case it might wipe off, or developed out areas from emulsion damage or defect, which would cause the spots to develop. Then you'd see them in the fixer... Check for contamination somewhere.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Pieter12]

I wrote Ilford when I noticed the dark spots appearing on FB paper when wet. Here is their reply:

Good morning Pieter,
I'm sorry you've been alarmed by some abnormal looking dark and lights spots on your processed MGFB Classic paper. I work in our Technical Services department, but also handle customer quality issues/complaints.

From your helpful description - I can put your mind at rest, as I am recognising the exact issue you describe. Seeing your image also confirmed my recognition of the issue.
I'd had approx 10 other customers raise this to me - initially approx 18 months ago. The issue only affects FB (never RC) and only ever shows when FB paper is wet.
It can arise on all FB products, and on all/random batches. Exact as you report - it can show as dark spots seen on the base side when wet only. But also as light spots - on the emulsion side, again only when wet. The spots often show worse if you hold a wet print up to lights/a window - or over a lightbox.

The issue is linked to an enforced base change approx 4 years ago (This is why they weren't present on the prior product version - MGFB IV). The newer base has a slightly different paper structure/fibre weave, and this means some of the paper pulp can show more openly - and have more structure when wet.
The issue if it shows, really is very random though.

Following all investigations and from the feedback of customers - our findings are that these spots really do only show when wet, and they have no adverse effects in dried prints. Nor do they alter archival stability of prints.
So any prints you're seeing these spots on when wet, will be as archivally stable as prints pre the base change, and the spots ought not ever show. You won't need to alter anything either - re how you process your prints.
But, we do appreciate its likely un-nerving for you/others seeing the issue when prints are wet.

I'm not typically replacing customers items/boxes - as these spots are intermittently inherent with all FB papers in our range. (Even within a batches master roll, not all the meterage will be affected. Likewise a customer might even observe that not all sheets within any box - is affected). So even a replacement box could show this issue. But, most boxes any customers use - likely won't show these wet related spots. So this too, is why we are never replacing paper, as the actual dried prints look totally normal and free of the spots.
Just in case it further helps, the issue can tend to show more when prints are washed longer than we guide, but even then - they are never showing when try, and still don't affect archival stability.
So I hope this helps to reassure you the spots can be normal, and you're not doing anything wrong with how you process the paper. If you were ever to see the spots on dried prints however, please come back to me and I'll certainly then further help.
Kind regards, sue evans
Technical Services
technical@harmantechnology.com

 

[-chrille-]

Just a follow up on my problem with grey spots on prints.

Harman is correct. The spots are all gone after drying

 

[-chrille-]

Did some more prints on Ilford glossy fiber today and the spots was seen all over the prints, both on back and on the emulsion.

Here is a photo of a print against bright light. It is almost like the paper is transparent were the spots are. Its gone when prints dry.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Any insights/help would be much appreciated on
a) what is causing these spots (see photos below) and b) how to remove them?

Working with Ilford multigrade IV paper, Ilford multigrade developer, Kodak indicator stop, Ilford rapid fix 1:9.

I am thinking it may be related to too much time in an exhausted fix bath? Would a second fix with fresh fixer remove the spots?

Thanks in advance.



View attachment 307473 View attachment 307474

I use Rapid Fix 1:4 dilution. you are using 1:9 seems wrong

 

[Carnie Bob]

I had this problem with ART 300 years back where dark spots would be seen on the back of the prints, but when dried they went away. I would be concerned if I purchased paper and had the same result... The response I got from our tech rep with Harmon was they changed paper base and in some cases the paper was thinner in spots . Kind of makes sense to me but for the OP a PIA.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's a flaw in the paper or its base coating itself. I once had a bit of it with MG Cooltone. I recently got a box of MGWT where it conspicuously affects the majority of sheets. It's quite evident when the print is wet, but then disappears when the print is dry. So I don't know if there is any long term connotation or not. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that on my older examples. Something in the base just goes transparent when its wet. Also tiny bubbles come through. So I suspect some kind of pinholes in the paper. But it is not something in the past. Worse now.

But since the Mfg has already responded, and I have no reason to doubt them, I'm not going to get overly concerned about it.
It would be nice to know the actual technical reason, however.

 

[Pieter12]

It's a flaw in the paper or its base coating itself. I once had a bit of it with MG Cooltone. I recently got a box of MGWT where it conspicuously affects the majority of sheets. It's quite evident when the print is wet, but then disappears when the print is dry. So I don't know if there is any long term connotation or not. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that on my older examples. Something in the base just goes transparent when its wet. Also tiny bubbles come through. So I suspect some kind of pinholes in the paper. But it is not something in the past. Worse now.

But since the Mfg has already responded, and I have no reason to doubt them, I'm not going to get overly concerned about it.
It would be nice to know the actual technical reason, however.

Ilford's response is that the effect is caused by "The newer base has a slightly different paper structure/fibre weave, and this means some of the paper pulp can show more openly - and have more structure when wet." Sounds like the technical reason to me.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Not really. But it is a generalized description, an already obvious one. It certainly doesn't imply the paper is better than before,
just what they are forced to use under present circumstances. But since all my prints develop the same as before, tone the same, and even retouch just the same, good enough.

 

[Pieter12]

Not really. But it is a generalized description, an already obvious one. It certainly doesn't imply the paper is better than before,
just what they are forced to use under present circumstances. But since all my prints develop the same as before, tone the same, and even retouch just the same, good enough.

I agree, but what good would a detailed explanation do? I, for one would not have thought the reason for the spots to have been coming from the paper weave and grain, so it was not obvious at least to me. In fact, it worried me, so I wrote them. The prints end up looking fine and the somewhat limited description of the reason does not seem to be something that would affect the longevity of the print.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, thank you for writing them. I intended to do so, but got distracted with other chores. But how they replied to you is at least enough to alleviate archival concerns, though not necessarily my curiosity about paper manufacture itself.