Black horizontal scratches on b&w photos - final verdict on Edwal No Scratch?

[Camerarabbit]

Hello all - I have been trying to make a print of this photo - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d5lp5i331htn46t/AADTZiKu_URxHCCKvFK6J0o2a?dl=0 - and to eliminate the scratch on the wall (to the left) and in the window.
From my reading online, I’ve learned that black scratches mean a scratch in the emulsion side and that white scratches mean scratches on the base side, but when I look at the negative it really appears to me that the scratches are on the base side. Hmmmm. I'm thinking that maybe the scratches so deep that they penetrate to the emulsion? Still not sure.
In any case, I’ve tried using a cold light enlarger and nose grease and that helped a tiny bit. Just got my hands on Edwal No Scratch, but that seems to be only for scratches on the base side? Havent tried printing at a higher aperture (I've read that printing at f/11 or higher can help). I’m also reading online that I can rewash the film (in just water or should I put it in developer, stop and fix again? I’m getting mixed messages) to swell the film's emulsion and perhaps make the scratches less visible, but I'm weary about messing with it too much. If the no scratch and printing at f/22 doesnt help, I may just dodge the black scratch on the wall to help it blend in better and just live with the scratches in the window. I love this photo and will give it one last try and look forward to having Photrio's expert opinions on what to try beforehand!

 

[mshchem]

Yikes, that's a scratch. Edwal no scratch is a ancient trick, I think it's mostly turpentine. I haven't used it since the 1970s. This is a job for software, if you want a real black and white print Ilford does it. The Edwal stuff never bothered my emulsion that I remember, but it is a mess, and impossible to clean and store the negative once applied. The other old trick is to use a knife to clean off the black line. I can't draw a circle so I've never tried this.

 

[Bill Burk]

This looks like emulsion scratch. I think you could tape a couple of fine red threads on the negative when you print. Then spot it out on the print.

 

[Camerarabbit]

Do you think it's worth trying the no scratch stuff or is this definitely an emulsion scratch? So strange because I dont see a scratch on the emulsion. I'm trying to make 50 prints so spotting isnt really an option unfortunately

 

[Donald Qualls]

You could just call attention to the scratch -- mark it as a "genuine film artifact" and double your price for the prints...

 

[Camerarabbit]

You could just call attention to the scratch -- mark it as a "genuine film artifact" and double your price for the prints...

hahahaha and maybe tag it #istillshootfilm

 

[Bill Burk]

Oh. Do you have a diffusion source enlarger or condenser head? Diffusion will make some things disappear

 

[George Collier]

A less intrusive material than No Scratch is nose grease, or oil, from your own nose. Just collect a bit from the side of your nose, or your forehead and apply it to the base side. Easy to remove with film cleaner. We used to do this in the 70's, no one ever wanted to use No Scratch for reasons stated above.
Another enlarger that helps to minimize mechanical or physical blemishes is a Cold Light enlarger. I use one and almost never have dust or other issues.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Is the scratch the white line at the top of the image?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

If you have a glass negative carrier you could wet mount the neg. That would get rid of it almost for sure. Bit messy though.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I had a hard time seeing any black lines with my phone. I can see it now on my laptop.

 

[Donald Qualls]

A less intrusive material than No Scratch is nose grease, or oil, from your own nose. Just collect a bit from the side of your nose, or your forehead and apply it to the base side.

Nothing you can put on the base side will fix an emulsion side scratch. If the scratch really is on the base side, in order to appear black in the print it must be clearer than whatever base side coating it cuts through.

 

[mshchem]

Nothing you can put on the base side will fix an emulsion side scratch. If the scratch really is on the base side, in order to appear black in the print it must be clearer than whatever base side coating it cuts through.

I have found out years ago, that if the film base non emulsion side gets creased or impressed by a object, you get "stress whitening" in the plastic. This will show up on the print as white lines not black. The stress whitening decreases light transmission through the base.
This is very easy to demonstrate, take a piece of clear plastic like a Tic Tac candy box and bend it back and forth. You will see it's no longer clear.

 

[Camerarabbit]

thanks, all. was back at the darkroom again, and tried washing the film to swell the emulsion, no scratch liquid, and a cold light enlarger and nothing changed, so think this scratch, while on the base side, penetrated to the emulsion. took donald's advice and forced myself to embrace the film-y-ness of this little debacle.

 

[Bill Burk]

I'm thinking it's not emulsion but actually an optical issue - maybe refraction is aiming two sides of the scratch into one line of brightness. Maybe you can fill the base scratch with a black substance such as Opaque.

 

[Camerarabbit]

I'm thinking it's not emulsion but actually an optical issue - maybe refraction is aiming two sides of the scratch into one line of brightness. Maybe you can fill the base scratch with a black substance such as Opaque.

I could see that. The emulsion side looks pristine. What's Opaque? Can you link to it? Thanks!

 

[Kino]

A base scratch is essentially a prism that diverts light and appears as a black line. Fill this with a fluid that has the same or near refractive index and it will largely disappear. If you have an old bottle of Kodak Film Cleaner, it's pretty close but wrangling it under an enlarger head is difficult unless you use a glass negative carrier and work very quickly.

Do this at your own risk. The stuff is bad to inhale and evaporates very quickly.

An emulsion scratch removes the image forming sliver. There is no photo chemical cure for this other than re shooting.

 

[Camerarabbit]

A base scratch is essentially a prism that diverts light and appears as a black line. Fill this with a fluid that has the same or near refractive index and it will largely disappear. If you have an old bottle of Kodak Film Cleaner, it's pretty close but wrangling it under an enlarger head is difficult unless you use a glass negative carrier and work very quickly.

Do this at your own risk. The stuff is bad to inhale and evaporates very quickly.

An emulsion scratch removes the image forming sliver. There is no photo chemical cure for this other than re shooting.

oof, this is sounding complicated. i tried the no scratch liquid and printing with a glass neg carrier and the negative got a big spot on it within 30 minutes. might be worth the money to just have this scanned and printed as a 4x5 negative, if i decide that the image is important enough

 

[eli griggs]

Make a paper negative or three, the size of the desired final print, and touch up with a pencil until one of them prints cleanly.

I have a pic of my eldest that I have to try this with, and I'm none too happy about it but short of going digital in editing/printing, it may be the only good option I have.

 

[Camerarabbit]

Make a paper negative or three, the size of the desired final print, and touch up with a pencil until one of them prints cleanly.

I have a pic of my eldest that I have to try this with, and I'm none too happy about it but short of going digital in editing/printing, it may be the only good option I have.

great idea!

 

[Bill Burk]

I could see that. The emulsion side looks pristine. What's Opaque? Can you link to it? Thanks!

Opaque is either black or red paste/mud-like water-based paint that blocks all light. It's usual use was lithographic film, to spot pinholes, or cover off larger areas.

This is the stuff, but the price is not reasonable. You can decide what's reasonable but I wouldn't think more than 10 dollars normally, maybe a few more just because they don't stock it everywhere like they used to.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kodak-Opaq...082790?hash=item2af3090be6:g:sfsAAOSwIrNfcefI

 

[Donald Qualls]

A base scratch is essentially a prism that diverts light and appears as a black line.

Diverting light so it doesn't fall on the print will result in a white line. The only way a base scratch could appear black is if it somehow focused light onto a line at the print plane -- which would result in a light "halo" alongside the dark line, where the focused light was "stolen".

Something else that occurred to me -- were these prints processed in a machine? An issue in the processor could produce a pressure mark on the print emulsion, without any corresponding damage to the negative. Processing an unexposed sheet would reveal that. It's also possible that the paper is defective -- either pressure marked at the factory, or x-rayed in transit (some older airport x-ray machines fogged in narrow strips), or even light fogged (scratch in the black plastic bag?). A sheet from a separate box of paper would resolve that.