Black and White reversal processing first developer

ruilourosa · Jun 3, 2015

Hello

I would like to divise a formula based on a commercial developer (rodinal, dektol, ilford multigrade or other liquid form developer) which could me transformed in a firs developer (by adding thiosulfate)

Can anybody help me? rodinal would be great

Thanks

Rui Lourosa

Athiril · Jun 3, 2015

Sodium Thiosulphate is recommended by dark room cookbook at 16g/L (sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate) to D-76, so I'd use the same amount with other developers like Rodinal 1:25, etc and see how it goes, adjust processing time to fit.

I use a similar recipe, works well at that level.

Steve Roberts · Jun 4, 2015

Ilford PQ Universal works well for me, but easy on the thiosulphate.
Steve

ruilourosa · Jun 4, 2015

Did anyone use rodinal?, i would be interested in the contrast achieved and also the max density provided, can anyone recomend some literature? i´m about to begin a large project and i would like to stablish the method.

Thanks

Rui Lourosa

Gerald C Koch · Jun 4, 2015

ruilourosa said:
Did anyone use rodinal?, i would be interested in the contrast achieved and also the max density provided, can anyone recomend some literature? i´m about to begin a large project and i would like to stablish the method.

Thanks

Rui Lourosa

Reversal processing is more difficult than ordinary negative development. There are several additional variables present. From posts here on APUG people who have difficulties with reversal processing do not follow the recommended method. So I always recommend that people carefully follow Ilford's excellent directions and not experiment.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=90

SalveSlog · Jun 4, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
....
So I always recommend that people carefully follow Ilford's excellent directions and not experiment.
....

I'm a beginner and I agree! But if we want to also use other films or formats than what's in Ilfords excellent recipe we will have to experiment a liiiiiittle bit.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 4, 2015

SalveSlog said:
I'm a beginner and I agree! But if we want to also use other films or formats than what's in Ilfords excellent recipe we will have to experiment a liiiiiittle bit.

If you are a beginner then all the more reason to use a tested method. Ilford's directions are very clear,

You might have to sacrifice a short roll to determine the correct EI but the method should be unchanged. But this applies to all film reversal. For reversal the EI may not have any direct relation to the ISO rating.

Oxleyroad · Jun 4, 2015

I have tried Rodinal, but have yet to crack the magic ratios for Rodinal and thiosulfate. It was hard to get the right development time to give a good tonal range that projects well, but I find Dektol, PQ Universal and D19 all much easier to work with to get the results I seek.

ruilourosa · Jun 5, 2015

Rodinal is not a dumb persistence it´s just available. I have read that 1+5 with 16 gr per liter of tiosulphate could work...

Thanks!

Rui Lourosa

ruilourosa · Jun 8, 2015

Anyone knows any book about the subject?

thanks

Rui Lourosa

Gerald C Koch · Jun 8, 2015

The purpose of the thiosulfate added to the first developer is to ensure clear highlights in the slides. The amount added depends on the film used so some testing is required. Use the minimum amount that is required.

I personally know of no book exclusively dedicated to reversal processing.

Europan · Jun 8, 2015

I used Rodinal as first developer and as second developer. One has to push a little for enough contrast, I did 1+20 to 1+50. Times need to be determined with samples.

True reversal films with blended emulsions (an ortho- to panchromatic for the taking and a non-sensitised one to form the positive image) are best processed with more contrasty (paper) developers. Fomapan Reversal 100 responds nicely to classical Hydroquinone-Metol and Hydroquinone-Phenidone formulae. I derived my house formula from the thousands of feet of Fomapan R 100 that had to be processed. I gave it 30 g of sulphite per liter. Sodium sulphite eats on silver salts, which is mostly silver bromide, so by balancing the time of first development against the amount of pictorial salts degraded one can define overall density, contrast, and yield in speed.

Fomapan R is the only true reversal film left on the market. Agfa-Scala was another one with the difference of a pyrolusite subbing where Fomapan R has a silver undercoat, in a very thin layer, of course. The best such film I know was Agfa Dia Direct, successor of Gevapan 26 if not the same thing. Nothing compares to the brilliance of a good diapositive.

ruilourosa · Jun 8, 2015

Rodinal 1+20 + 8 gr/liter thiosulfate would be a good starting point and enough for tmax 100?

Thanks

Rui Lourosa

Europan · Jun 8, 2015

Why the thiosulphate? With Kodak T-Max 100 you would inverse a negative film with a grey base. Thats not in line with what you want to have on the screen, is it? You can act on the highlights as much as you want, they stay covered by the base tint. Its not possible to shift them out the grey. Only with tremendous amounts of projection light you could pound away the base but then youd loose the shadows and have too bright middle tones.

Im tempted to suggest a different approach: Make contact film prints from your negatives. Kodak offers type 2302, 35mm, in 100-foot rolls, there is more such material available, it depends on the format.

Paul Verizzo · Jun 8, 2015

Photographer's Formulary has a T-Max reversal kit. All the chemicals are listed, goddess bless them.

Stick with the known until you have a base of knowledge and experience.

Paul Verizzo · Jun 8, 2015

Europan said:
Fomapan R is the only true reversal film left on the market. Agfa-Scala was another one with the difference of a pyrolusite subbing where Fomapan R has a silver undercoat, in a very thin layer, of course. The best such film I know was Agfa Dia Direct, successor of Gevapan 26 if not the same thing. Nothing compares to the brilliance of a good diapositive.

Kodak still makes and sells 16mm Tri-X reversal in single perf. I think it was you that told me about Foma still making that double perf.

ruilourosa · Jun 8, 2015

I am not really interested in using comercial available products, if i were i would use them, i have them, i know them and i would like to change, and i was asking some help about a developer not usually known for reversal processing.

THanks

Rui Lourosa

Paul Verizzo · Jun 8, 2015

ruilourosa said:
I am not really interested in using comercial available products, if i were i would use them, i have them, i know them and i would like to change, and i was asking some help about a developer not usually known for reversal processing.

THanks

Rui Lourosa

Rui, I get it. I'm like you, always looking for something different. The Explorer gene, if I may.

It's just that if you've never done reversal (I haven't), it's a good policy to start with a known process. I'm getting close to mixing my own C-41 developer, but I've been using C-41 kits for some 30 years.

Here is the link for the PF TM Reversal: http://stores.photoformulary.com/reversal-developer-for-t-max/ Click on the Tech Info and every chemical and amount is listed. The only thing the typical fairly well stocked amateur chemical shelf may not have is the potassium permanganate.

Paul Verizzo · Jun 8, 2015

Anyone know why T-Max films suddenly became "reversible?" After many decades of not having a film for that purpose? An especially clear base? The finer grain?

Roger Cole · Jun 8, 2015

Anybody try the PF kit with the Foma film?

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Athiril · Jun 8, 2015

T-Max 100 and Delta 100 make better reversal films than Fomapan R100, I've processed them all. I have a formula that works well with T-Max 100 posted here on Apug in the articles section somewhere.

ruilourosa · Jun 9, 2015

Yesterday i tryed developing with rodinal 1+10 +8 gr/liter of sodium thiosulfate in the first developer with the permanganate usual (ilford formula) bleach but the emulsion of the tmax 100 just fell apart... not sure if it was the bleach or the strong dilution of the developer. Tryed the second time but changed 2 variables: rodinal 1+20 +8gr/liter thiosulfate and dichromate bleach and it worked nicely (although i will give another minute in the development because the iso 100 was just a little bit dark) today i am going to test just one variable, i would prefer to have the permanganate bleach as it seems less toxic...

Paul Verizzo · Jun 9, 2015

Athiril said:
T-Max 100 and Delta 100 make better reversal films than Fomapan R100, I've processed them all. I have a formula that works well with T-Max 100 posted here on Apug in the articles section somewhere.

Could you amplify on why you say "better?" Especially since the Fomapan is designed for reversal.

ruilourosa · Jun 9, 2015

Another question: Does sodium bisulfate really substitutes sulfuric acid in the bleach?

Thanks

Rui Lourosa

ruilourosa · Jun 9, 2015

Another thing... since sodium bisulfate is used in tropical developers and fixers as a mechanism to avoid excessive swelling, mixing a less toxic bleach based on potassium permanganate and sodium bisulfate as a substitute for sulfuric acid, would i end up with a less swelling bleach process and in that way preserve my gelatin a bit?

THanks

Black and White reversal processing first developer

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