Bizarre cracked texture on Delta 100 4x5 - solved

[Kilgallb]

I had a similar issue with Delta 100 when I switched from tray to a unicolor roller. TMX 100 did not have the issue. I cured it by dropping the fixed film in double strength hypo clear. I have no idea why that fixed it,

I ran what I thought was ruined Delta 100 through the hypo clear for five minutes and fixed those too.

Maybe TMX and Delta have different types of anti-halation layers.

 

[M Carter]

All I can think of is there's some sort of coating on the base side that's affected by water but not developer, that a water rinse must swell it or something, but a long pre-soak removes it? (Ilford says if you must pre soak for rotary, do a long one, like 5 minutes I believe?) Not a chemist and it's very strange, and what really sucks is if you quickly inspect your negs by holding them to the light and checking the emulsion side when wet, you don't see it - it may not appear until the film is dry for all I know? Just glad I caught it before I ran all the sheets, this shoot was out-of-town model, wardrobe, hair stylist, hand-made props, complicated lighting setup, and 12 sheets in the can. Got 6 with no cracks and my best take was in that batch. Sigh of relief.

 

[AgX]

I am curious an IlfordPhoto's reply on this matter.

 

[mpålsson]

I had a similar issue with Delta 100 when I switched from tray to a unicolor roller. TMX 100 did not have the issue. I cured it by dropping the fixed film in double strength hypo clear. I have no idea why that fixed it,

I ran what I thought was ruined Delta 100 through the hypo clear for five minutes and fixed those too.

Maybe TMX and Delta have different types of anti-halation layers.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm currently facing an issue that seems to be similar to the one discussed here.

Since switching from Kodak TMAX100 to Ilford Delta 100 about two years ago, I've noticed occasional, random crack marks on my processed 4x5 film. The marks are quite irregular (not straight lines) and never inside the image area of the negative (always in the margins). I presumed maybe Ilford film is a bit more delicate than Kodak, and I wasn't being 100% careful somewhere. But frankly, the crack marks didn't affect the printed image, so I didn't pay much attention to it. Until the other day...

While I was hanging up my latest batch of negs to dry, I accidentally rubbed one of these crack marks with my finger. To my great surprise, it wasn't a crack at all as I had always thought, but some kind of plastic/film-like substance that easily peeled off (much like the protective film for an LCD screen during shipment). Furthermore, the substance is on the base side, not the emulsion side.

After reading this thread, I soaked the negs in water again and attempted a 5-minute hypo clear bath, followed by thoroughly re-washing the negatives. But that has no effect on removing this filmy substance. I'm curious if this is the same issue others were discussing in this thread, and if so, whether there is a confirmed solution. I've tried contacting Ilford Photo, but so far not received any reply.

For reference, I don't do a pre-soak. My negatives have always been developed in BTZS tubes using fresh developer (DDX 1+7), fresh stop bath, fresh rapid fixer, and thorough washing with a final dip in distilled water + PhotoFlo. I've never used hypo on negatives before, but tried it this one time because it was mentioned above.

I've uploaded a video showing the film-like substance being peeled away from the base side here

Any help or insight would be most appreciated!!

 

[GregY]

I'm with you Tom. For B&W it's almost all Ilford for me and I'd like to know what makes my film and processing work. Also what doesn't? I do pre-soak for my Pyro and Pyrocat negatives, but not for my Xtol-R ones.

I also pre-soaked with PMK and still do with Pyrocat HD.

 

[Kino]

While I was hanging up my latest batch of negs to dry, I accidentally rubbed one of these crack marks with my finger. To my great surprise, it wasn't a crack at all as I had always thought, but some kind of plastic/film-like substance that easily peeled off (much like the protective film for an LCD screen during shipment). Furthermore, the substance is on the base side, not the emulsion side.

As was implied in a posting before, it could be a transparent "anti-curl/cup" layer applied to the base to minimize the effects of humidity that has detached itself.

I would send that to Ilford for comment!

 

[mpålsson]

As was implied in a posting before, it could be a transparent "anti-curl/cup" layer applied to the base to minimize the effects of humidity that has detached itself.

I would send that to Ilford for comment!

Thank you! I tried reaching out to Ilford but still haven’t received any response.

 

[BHuij]

Chiming in here - I have also noticed this on my Ilford sheet films (4x5 FP4+ and HP5+). I do pre-soak for 2 minutes as the first step in my rotary development process. I can't for the life of me fathom how a pre-soak could cause anything like this, but the evidence is compelling. Might try without just to see, but at any rate I haven't found these cracks/scratches/whatever they are to show up in my prints.

 

[Tim Stapp]

If I recall correctly, JOBO recommends a 5 minute presoak when doing rotary processing and using inversion times.

I don't shoot much Ilford. But unable to find times for Foma 200 (4x5) I've done 5 minute presoak and inversion times with XTOL one shot.

I realize that Foma is not Ilford. BUT, is the short presoak possibly causing issues?

 

[Vaughn]

I had problems with something permently messing up the non-emulsion side of FP4+ using Expert Drums. Cured it by using a non-hardening fixer. My guess -- the hardener was messing with the anti-curl/anti-halation layer on the back of the film. Don't know why...just happy it does not happen anymore.

 

[Tim Stapp]

I had problems with something permently messing up the non-emulsion side of FP4+ using Expert Drums. Cured it by using a non-hardening fixer. My guess -- the hardener was messing with the anti-curl/anti-halation layer on the back of the film. Don't know why...just happy it does not happen anymore.

My CPE2+ doesn't handle the Expert Drum. Is it possible that the short (according to JOBO) prewash times are contributing?

I'd personally would try extended prewash to see if the anti-halation layer were causing problems.

We submit our films to multiple minutes of developer, stop, fix. I'm not sure (I'm no chemist) how each of these processes effect the anti-halation coating.

I can say this: I've had none on these issues with a 5 minute water only pre soak doing film rotary in JOBO.

Given all of the responses above: I'd try a longer (5 minute minimum) pre soak on a couple sheets and see what happens. Worst case: you've wasted a couple sheets and proven me wrong or best case: solved your problem.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have a box of Delta 100 4x5 that I haven't shot yet, and might just wait until we hear a reply here from Ilford. I use non-hardening TF2 fixer, but I still would like to know if it's the fixer or the presoak/no presoak causing the situation. Like has been said, maybe it's an anti-curl layer that's not supposed to be removed? I said earlier that I presoak for Pyrocat HDC, but not for Xtol-R so I'd really like to know if it's a presoak thing or not.

 

[mpålsson]

I have a box of Delta 100 4x5 that I haven't shot yet, and might just wait until we hear a reply here from Ilford. I use non-hardening TF2 fixer, but I still would like to know if it's the fixer or the presoak/no presoak causing the situation. Like has been said, maybe it's an anti-curl layer that's not supposed to be removed? I said earlier that I presoak for Pyrocat HDC, but not for Xtol-R so I'd really like to know if it's a presoak thing or not.

I personally never used a pre-soak, whether developing negs in BTZS Tubes or a Jobo Expert 3010 drum. The crack marks were a little less noticeable with the Jobo drum, but still occurred.

I believe this has something to do with the film base (anti-curl layer?) sticking to the wall of developing tube chamber once immersed. The Jobo 3010's film chambers have a much larger diameter than BTZS tubes, so the film isn't as forcibly cupped by the chamber's wall in the Jobo 3010. Often it requires a bit of force to free the negative from the wall of the chamber, and the points of closest contact (the edges and corners) were invariably where the cracks appeared. I found that fewer crack marks occurred if I kept the chamber immersed with water (or stop bath, in the case of BTZS tubes) while freeing the neg.

Although I didn't try, I assume I would be able to peel off this (anti-curl layer?) from the negs developed in my old Jobo drum (sold off about a year ago) almost as easily as my most recent negs developed in BTZS tubes.

 

[MTGseattle]

Have any of you had the same things happen with roll film? I ask because I've been using a 1 minute constant agitation "pre-wash" in my roll film processing since about '99 and while I've had issues here and there, it's never been this issue.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I personally never used a pre-soak, whether developing negs in BTZS Tubes or a Jobo Expert 3010 drum. The crack marks were a little less noticeable with the Jobo drum, but still occurred.

I believe this has something to do with the film base (anti-curl layer?) sticking to the wall of developing tube chamber once immersed. The Jobo 3010's film chambers have a much larger diameter than BTZS tubes, so the film isn't as forcibly cupped by the chamber's wall in the Jobo 3010. Often it requires a bit of force to free the negative from the wall of the chamber, and the points of closest contact (the edges and corners) were invariably where the cracks appeared. I found that fewer crack marks occurred if I kept the chamber immersed with water (or stop bath, in the case of BTZS tubes) while freeing the neg.

Although I didn't try, I assume I would be able to peel off this (anti-curl layer?) from the negs developed in my old Jobo drum (sold off about a year ago) almost as easily as my most recent negs developed in BTZS tubes.

I use an sp445 4X5 tank for almost all my 4X5 developing, but do occasionally use a large Yankee tank. It seems like I might be able to avoid the "cracked" problem by using those two tanks. We'll see when I start using the box of Delta 100.

 

[BHuij]

@MTGseattle Never once have I seen it on a roll film, and I presoak my FP4+, HP5+ and Delta 100 when I'm rotary processing them in HC-110 or Rodinal. 135 and 120. It seems to be a uniquely 4x5 problem, which kind of makes sense if it is indeed some kind of anti-curl layer. As a non-chemist, I have a hard time understanding why a presoak is the culprit though. The film is going to be covered in various liquids of various pH values and other properties for upwards of 10 minutes anyway. Not sure why a 2-minute pre-soak in plain old water would be what makes the difference in an anti-curl layer getting somehow damaged.

 

[MattKing]

When Ektachrome was re-introduced it was initially only available in 35mm, which of course immediately brought rise to calls for 120 and sheet film versions.
I had some conversations with a source or two about that.
Based on those conversations, it is clear to me that due to the differences in substrate, there are a lot of differences between sheet film and120 film and 35mm film, and it takes a fair bit of engineering to get them to perform similarly.