Biting into XTOL replenishment - Benefits and Times

chiller · Jan 7, 2018

Does this replenishment regime work for a Jobo rotary system where I'm using 300ml for a 1500 series tank and a 120 roll film? Would you replenish at the same rate? [75ml per 120 film?]

The chemistry requirement for the 2509 tank is about the same. I only develop 4 sheets at a time in 300ml.

Would the constant agitation oxidise the Xtol at a different rate and alter replenishment rates needed, or is it not viable with rotary systems?

MattKing · Jan 7, 2018

chiller said:
Does this replenishment regime work for a Jobo rotary system where I'm using 300ml for a 1500 series tank and a 120 roll film? Would you replenish at the same rate? [75ml per 120 film?]

The chemistry requirement for the 2509 tank is about the same. I only develop 4 sheets at a time in 300ml.

Would the constant agitation oxidise the Xtol at a different rate and alter replenishment rates needed, or is it not viable with rotary systems?

Kodak Alaris' datasheet (j109) gives specific time recommendations for rotary processing and a replenishment (= "seasoned") X-Tol.
Here is the link: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j109.pdf
I haven't noted any difference in the replenishment rates for rotary processing. You would need to keep in mind the minimum 100ml stock X-Tol per roll capacity recommendation, but using 300 ml does that.
One thing that would tend to offset the effect of oxidation is the fact that you are discarding 70ml of those 300 ml (nearly 1/4) of used and oxidized developer and replacing it with 70ml of replenisher.

chiller · Jan 7, 2018

Thanks Matt. And thanks for the link also.

chiller · Jan 7, 2018

Further question. This is based on a 5 litre mix of Xtol.

Divide the 5 litres into 2 litres for development and as long as I still have it, a 2 litre Grolsch bottle for the main developer and the 3 litres remaining decanted into 200ml brown glass bottles.

* Can I "season" the 2 litres Xtol by putting a roll or 3 of exposed film in the tank over night and then replenishing by the number of films the next day?

* If I do speed and contrast testing for EI on my chosen film, will the chosen development time change as more films are developed?
Eg Assuming I arrive at 7:00 minutes after testing two 120 rolls will that remain 7 minutes as I process and replenish additional films.

Thanks

Sirius Glass · Jan 7, 2018

chiller said:
Does this replenishment regime work for a Jobo rotary system where I'm using 300ml for a 1500 series tank and a 120 roll film? Would you replenish at the same rate? [75ml per 120 film?]

The chemistry requirement for the 2509 tank is about the same. I only develop 4 sheets at a time in 300ml.

Would the constant agitation oxidise the Xtol at a different rate and alter replenishment rates needed, or is it not viable with rotary systems?

MattKing said:
Kodak Alaris' datasheet (j109) gives specific time recommendations for rotary processing and a replenishment (= "seasoned") X-Tol.
Here is the link: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j109.pdf
I haven't noted any difference in the replenishment rates for rotary processing. You would need to keep in mind the minimum 100ml stock X-Tol per roll capacity recommendation, but using 300 ml does that.
One thing that would tend to offset the effect of oxidation is the fact that you are discarding 70ml of those 300 ml (nearly 1/4) of used and oxidized developer and replacing it with 70ml of replenisher.

chiller said:
Further question. This is based on a 5 litre mix of Xtol.

Divide the 5 litres into 2 litres for development and as long as I still have it, a 2 litre Grolsch bottle for the main developer and the 3 litres remaining decanted into 200ml brown glass bottles.

* Can I "season" the 2 litres Xtol by putting a roll or 3 of exposed film in the tank over night and then replenishing by the number of films the next day?

* If I do speed and contrast testing for EI on my chosen film, will the chosen development time change as more films are developed?
Eg Assuming I arrive at 7:00 minutes after testing two 120 rolls will that remain 7 minutes as I process and replenish additional films.

Thanks

I divide the 5 liters into 1 liter bottles. I have done that for years with great success.

MattKing · Jan 7, 2018

chiller said:
Further question. This is based on a 5 litre mix of Xtol.

Divide the 5 litres into 2 litres for development and as long as I still have it, a 2 litre Grolsch bottle for the main developer and the 3 litres remaining decanted into 200ml brown glass bottles.

* Can I "season" the 2 litres Xtol by putting a roll or 3 of exposed film in the tank over night and then replenishing by the number of films the next day?

* If I do speed and contrast testing for EI on my chosen film, will the chosen development time change as more films are developed?
Eg Assuming I arrive at 7:00 minutes after testing two 120 rolls will that remain 7 minutes as I process and replenish additional films.

Thanks

The problem with 200 ml bottles is that 70 ml doesn't divide evenly into 200 ml
I don't know that 3 rolls of film would be enough to fully season 2 litres of working solution, but it will get you a fair way there. I would be sure to agitate them regularly though.
I also wouldn't add replenisher (and discard equivalent amounts of working solution) after the first 3 rolls of seasoning. Your 2 litres of working solution will still have ample developing capacity (enough for 25+ more rolls) and the bromide build up that is a major part of seasoning won't have built up to the stage where discarding a portion of it is necessary. You can start the per roll replenishment when you next develop film.
That should get you to a good place to do a preliminary set of speed and contrast tests. And those tests will help further season the working solution.

JWMster · Jan 7, 2018

For me so far since I began developing, the biggest change has been to using the bags of chems to mix up with water. I gotta admit that I was initially put off by this, but once I tried Perceptol... the first one of these, I was hooked by how quickly you can get going. I also use Photographer's Formulary's Stop Bath and TF-5 Fixer, and you make these to have plenty lying around, too. So all in all, I find I'm spending a lot less time developing a batch of film than I did before. HC-110 gave good results - especially (for me) using low agitation regimens. Very repeatable. But I didn't really like the viscosity of the fluid.... and always felt measuring it out was less accurate than it probably was. That said, I find Birnbaum's 2-bath approach to HC-110 looks appealing. But for now, thanks to everyone here, I'm settling into XTOL-R and have already done two rounds of replenishment today.Negatives look good so far... but we'll know more later. Thanks again! I'm especially looking forward to Round 6 when things ought to be settling in.... then I'll begin some testing.

chiller · Jan 8, 2018

MattKing said:
The problem with 200 ml bottles is that 70 ml doesn't divide evenly into 200 ml

It got too much for me so I went out to the darkroom and filled a 200 ml bottle to the brim and it holds 220 ml. Too much now I suppose

MattKing · Jan 8, 2018

chiller said:
It got too much for me so I went out to the darkroom and filled a 200 ml bottle to the brim and it holds 220 ml. Too much now I suppose

Better to have to discard 10 ml from each bottle than to have to pour 10 ml from the next bottle every third roll!
Of course 73 ml per roll sounds like a good replenishment regime too .

Sirius Glass · Jan 8, 2018

MattKing said:
The problem with 200 ml bottles is that 70 ml doesn't divide evenly into 200 ml

Same with 1 liter bottles. Therefore I keep the bottle with the supply stock solution as an accordion bottle. When it gets low I add in more stock solution from the other 1 liter stock bottles, squeezing out the air ...

Maris · Jan 8, 2018

I've used replenished Xtol since it came on the market. Because I do a lot of open tray development of sheet film my Xtol stock faced an extra oxidation challenge which prompted me to up the replenishment rate to 90 ml per "standard film". The original stock mixed in 2007 is still going strong and developer activity has been constant after the first week.
For the record my N development time for Tmax 400 is 11minutes 15 seconds at 20 Celcius, 5 seconds agitation per minute.

My informal impression is that the final activity of a well replenished Xtol working stock solution depends on the replenishment rate. Xtol replenished at 70ml per film settles to a lower (but constant) activity compared to a higher (but constant) activity at 90ml per film. There's opportunity for experiment here but I'm too lazy to tweak something that's working well.

Gerald C Koch · Jan 8, 2018

JWMster said:
So I've got the 2 liter bottle to begin an effort into XTOL replenishment. I've been reading up here, so I'm not looking to repeat all the same material. My Hornstein book and plenty of others seem averse to replenishment as opposed to one-use on the basis of this as a cost saving only and complicated with control issues. I get it. Upside seems to be tonality, accutance, and fine grain... and the promise that I get this in a package that develops closer to box speed than my beloved Perceptol. Have I got this right as the benefits?

If so, then it begins with setting up the usual stock solution for developing 2 batches of 1 liter each, replenish that with 235 ML of new stock XTOL and fill with 765 ML (yes, I rounded to a normal number by 1 ML), and pour each of these into the 2 liter replenish bottle. That will give a solution that is about 24% replenished with the balance used once. Of course this is a mix, but this is the point to begin using a re-mix. Ultimately using 1000ML in a stretch, the mix will stabilize with a content of roughly 12% replenished XTOL and the balance remixed. This will happen fairly quickly.

Time adjustment is the thing. My read is that Time for Normal Development will march from the STOCK time (1st use) towards the time for 1:1 mixes (stable use), and the key is then simply establishing the steps in-between. If I have this right? I can probably follow the Kodak J109 pub to determine the times. Thanks!

At two liters of working solution results will be somewhat variable from on replenishment the the previous one. I would suggest a greater voluke of working solution to smooth things out.

MattKing · Jan 8, 2018

Gerald C Koch said:
At two liters of working solution results will be somewhat variable from on replenishment the the previous one. I would suggest a greater voluke of working solution to smooth things out.

Gerald and I have had this sort of discussion before.
I don't agree that 2 litres is too small to ensure smooth operation. Two litres has enough developing capacity to develop 20 rolls of film, so there is a lot of "cushion" when you develop 3 or 4 rolls. That is the same capacity as 5 litres of D-76. It would be too small if you were developing high volumes of film, but as X-Tol is quite efficient (100 ml per roll when used one shot) the replenishment process is oriented more toward stabilizing bromide build up than replacing used up activity.
By all means use a larger working solution volume if it is convenient or if your film development volumes are high. It seems to me though that X-Tol is designed to work well with replenishment, even if the volumes are smaller than the older, deep tank oriented replenishment options.

JWMster · Jan 8, 2018

Matt and Gerald: Yes, I get it. I use a 1 gallon fuel tank for mixing up XTOL 'cause 5 liters fit within very easily. But talk about an awkward pour!!! I grabbed a 2-liter collapsible tank and am working with that for now. Perhaps 3 liters would be better... and if I can find a tank that size... we'll see about fitting that into the game plan. But for now... we're going with what we've got. Very much appreciate the caution and the trouble taken to offer it... and I take it in good faith. Gotta start somewhere. Next step... we'll just have to see what we can find. Thanks! and thanks Matt for not letting me get wrapped around a bend for now.

JWMster · Mar 20, 2018

After some time working with this, and much pleasure in the resulting negatives, just thought I'd add that I will be moving to a 1 gallon storage tank for the replenished solution of XTOL-R. I'd note that this is in part due to the volume I'm running and a desire to have fewer containers, but also in recognition that it surely won't hurt anything and might help stabilize the solution as GCK suggests above. In addition, I just happen to have a one gallon developing jug that's easier to handle than the 2 liter APC collapsible accordion bottle I've been using. As to the stability thing, working with Jobo processing quantities using a CPE2+ changed the math a bit, leading to reconsideration of the importance attached to stabilizing the soup.

John Wiegerink · Mar 20, 2018

JWMster said:
After some time working with this, and much pleasure in the resulting negatives, just thought I'd add that I will be moving to a 1 gallon storage tank for the replenished solution of XTOL-R. I'd note that this is in part due to the volume I'm running and a desire to have fewer containers, but also in recognition that it surely won't hurt anything and might help stabilize the solution as GCK suggests above. In addition, I just happen to have a one gallon developing jug that's easier to handle than the 2 liter APC collapsible accordion bottle I've been using. As to the stability thing, working with Jobo processing quantities using a CPE2+ changed the math a bit, leading to reconsideration of the importance attached to stabilizing the soup.

In your last sentence are you referring to the "pre-seasoning" that is suggested or the amount used to replenish? Are you satisfied with your negatives or using this more for convenience . Or maybe both? JohnW

JWMster · Mar 20, 2018

John W: Thanks for asking, but this was mostly a parenthetical note. Yes, I'm satisfied, but I'm trying to set Jobo fluid quantities (there seems to be some discretion) so that there is a more or less stable quantity of fluid used per film so that the replenishment using 70ml will be a constant proportion. It is very easy to come up with odd amounts going with Jobo guidance alone - which you can't do. So you reference Kodak's notes and use 100ML per film with a limit of 600ML (or 6 films) total. The thing is that before switching to the Jobo processor, I'd used the 2500 Jobo tanks on a Uniroller, then I simply moved the 2500 on to the Jobo CPE2+,. bit now I am using Jobo's 1500 tank combos on the CPE2+. This shifts things around a bit, and in recognition of this, I think the larger slosh of XTOL-R will help even things out once they stabilize according to the new mix/re-use practice. This is prescriptive or pre-emptive rather than based on empirical evidence or analysis of unsatisfactory negatives. Fact is, the only unsatisfactory experience I've had came from my first attempt to put 2 rolls of 120 on a single Jobo reel. I since been practicing the load procedure for this and will give it another shot soon enough.

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 20, 2018

What I like to do is to store the replenisher portion in a wine bladder to eliminate air as it's dispensed. For my working solution, I use a 2 liter bottle which I dump my 70ml/roll of replenisher while I'm developing. When I dump the used developer back in to the working solution, I top it off to eliminate air also. I have to keep an eye on the working solution. I notice my negs get thinner over time. Sometimes it doesn't hurt adding more than 70ml/roll. I replenish XTOL because it's more economical and I like the look of the seasoned developer.

darkroommike · Mar 20, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
What I like to do is to store the replenished portion in a wine bladder to eliminate air as it's dispensed. For my working solution, I use a 2 liter bottle which I dump my 70ml/roll of replenisher while I'm developing. When I dump the used developer back in to the working solution, I top it off to eliminate air also. I have to keep an eye on the working solution. I notice my negs get thinner over time. Sometimes it doesn't hurt adding more than 70ml/roll. I replenish XTOL because it's more economical and I like the look of the seasoned developer.

What I used to do (volume too low now to replenish) is to first add the replenisher to the jug (not bladder, bladders etc. are messy- just my own opinion) THEN pour back into the jug just to the topped up mark. 70mL per roll would mean I am likely discarding some seasoned developer with each roll but it's a cheap price to pay for consistency.

MattKing · Mar 20, 2018

JWMster said:
so that the replenishment using 70ml will be a constant proportion

You don't need to worry about this.
As long as you are using at least 100 ml of X-Tol per 120 roll (or equivalent) in the JOBO, adding 70 ml per roll (or whatever fine tuned amount you arrive at) at the replenishment stage should lead to consistent results.
The addition of 70 ml of replenisher replaces the same used up developer capacity irrespective of how much developer you used in the JOBO. And the concentration of bromides in the used developer you put back in with the working solution will vary with the number of rolls and developer volume used, so the amount of bromides going back into the working solution will end up being approximately the same amount per roll, whether you are using large volumes or smaller volumes in the JOBO.
Don't focus on what happens to the used developer. Focus on what the combination of used developer and replenisher does to the working solution.

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 20, 2018

darkroommike said:
What I used to do (volume too low now to replenish) is to first add the replenisher to the jug (not bladder, bladders etc. are messy- just my own opinion) THEN pour back into the jug just to the topped up mark. 70mL per roll would mean I am likely discarding some seasoned developer with each roll but it's a cheap price to pay for consistency.

It was a typo. It's "replenisher" not "replenished". If you top off, you will be discarding some seasoned developer. I don't know this for a fact, but I think discarding some seasoned developer may reduce bromide buildup. I think maybe an expert could verify this. But replenished XTOL works very well.

John Wiegerink · Mar 20, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
What I like to do is to store the replenisher portion in a wine bladder to eliminate air as it's dispensed. For my working solution, I use a 2 liter bottle which I dump my 70ml/roll of replenisher while I'm developing. When I dump the used developer back in to the working solution, I top it off to eliminate air also. I have to keep an eye on the working solution. I notice my negs get thinner over time. Sometimes it doesn't hurt adding more than 70ml/roll. I replenish XTOL because it's more economical and I like the look of the seasoned developer.

I pretty much do the same. Wine bladder for the replenisher and a gallon brown glass jug topped off for the working Xtol. Works a treat for me. JohnW

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 20, 2018

John Wiegerink said:
I pretty much do the same. Wine bladder for the replenisher and a gallon brown glass jug topped off for the working Xtol. Works a treat for me. JohnW

Are you a wino like me?

2 good things in life, photography and wine!

JWMster · Mar 20, 2018

Matt: Thanks. Yes I am focused on the 70ml fresh XTOL + 30ml re-use XTOL-R quantity put BACK into the WorkingSolution tank for 100ml per film used. That's not terribly complicated.

John: Have thought about the wine bladder but followed a different lead there. I already have an unused 1 gallon jug for developer, and couldn't decide on a 1 gallon wine bag. Read last night about someone here on Photrio using the wine bladder for the fresh XTOL and a glass bottle for the XTOL-R. Made sense that the rather consistent quantity in the tank of XTOL-R ours out to develop, and then gets refilled to the brim afterwards. With the quantity never really changing for more than a few minutes, a hard container makes sense to me and should actually be easier to pour into to Jobo bottles. On the other hand, the replenishment solution gets used to refill the XTOL-R and as it does so, steadily falls in quantity. So it makes sense to me that this is where you'd use the collapsible "wine" bottle. But each their own I guess. Since I don't have one on hand, I'm using those AP Photo accordion containers that theoretically adjust to the fluid quantity (but don't). I could probably improve things and reduce the # of containers by replacing these 5 with 2 folding wine bottles.

destroya · Mar 20, 2018

these bags are great for the stock XTOL solution as you dont have to poor thru the spout to fill them, fill them first then seal the bag with the spout. they are cheap and work very well.

I use a 1.75 liter Jack Daniels bottle to keep the working replenished solution in. i like that its clear so i can see all the grey build up and how much is in it. makes it easier to decide when to filter it

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXN6B1V/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Biting into XTOL replenishment - Benefits and Times

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Biting into XTOL replenishment - Benefits and Times

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