Big (for me) Fiber Base Prints - A lot of work.

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mshchem

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Yesterday I printed a 6 x 17 negative on some 10" × 24" Ilford Classic FB paper. I have plenty of space, and I needed it. Usually I don't go much over 11 x 14, especially with fiber base paper. I had at least 6, 20 x 24 trays going at one time. Developer, stop, fix, rinse, hypo clear, toner, hypo clear after toner, then into a big print washer. I have a drum dryer that allowed me to end up with reasonably flat dry prints. But I was exhausted after 5 hours in the darkroom. Had to take pills and a hot bath.
I made some similar RC prints from the same negative in a previous session. I used 1 tray. Kinda like a rocking print tray, just poured the solutions in, quick fix and wash, Se toner etc, (Ilford directions ) piece of cake.

It's good thing RC paper is as nice as it is these days. FB in 8x10 easy as can be. I see the guys making murals with FB on the internet, I bet they have plenty of young lab assistants :laugh:
 

Colin Corneau

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So, what kind of pills exactly..? :laugh:
 

138S

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I see the guys making murals with FB on the internet, I bet they have plenty of young lab assistants :laugh:

You just need the right gear to do the job conveniently.

A principal tool for that is a Drytac vacuum hot press to flatten and mount. The HGP560 makes 1276x2496mm. We use the smaller HGP260 wich is a marvel, vacuum makes around 7 Tm total in that hot press.

For processing the print you need a "concrete mixer" type custom open drum (easy to DIY) of around 800 mm diameter for a 2500mm beast (800xPi), this allows to use chem "one shot", last rinse is with distilled. The same drum dryes the print with some slightly heated air . When dried you make a roll with the print when still inside the drum to move it to the Drytac, to flatten and mounting the thing. This is about having the right gear, we are still novices in that and preparing the "concrete mixer".

Single problem is printer's skills, one has to nail the big print to be like the small prototypes, so one has to work the small prototypes with the exactly same Lux on the easel than later on the wall to avoid LIRF effects, paper is suprisingly cheap (around 15€ to 20€ per m2, depending on brand) if we nail the big print in the first try, having to repeat a monster print is quite painful, beyond paper cost it takes time.

Another important factor is a condenser enlarger with a LED lamp retrofit, this illuminates the wall quite well without reheating the head, this allows to stop the lens some two stops to get peak optic performance and DOF, so you need less a G or N (Rodentock) class lens that were better at relatively large apertures.
 
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mshchem

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I've done the "trough" method of developing 6 foot long pan shots. That was a long time ago. Much younger :happy:.

I have 2 Zone VI 5×7 + 8×10 -enlargers with twin tube VC cold light heads. This was about a 5X enlargement, exposure was 10.5 s at f 11 with a 180mm f5.6 El Nikkor . Metrolux II integrating timer. No problem with light intensity. I have big drums, don't like as much as trays.
My enlargers and my old large self :smile:
20191217_143017_resized.jpg

20191216_134005_resized.jpg
 

Lachlan Young

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You just need the right gear to do the job conveniently.

A principal tool for that is a Drytac vacuum hot press to flatten and mount. The HGP560 makes 1276x2496mm. We use the smaller HGP260 wich is a marvel, vacuum makes around 7 Tm total in that hot press.

For processing the print you need a "concrete mixer" type custom open drum (easy to DIY) of around 800 mm diameter for a 2500mm beast (800xPi), this allows to use chem "one shot", last rinse is with distilled. The same drum dryes the print with some slightly heated air . When dried you make a roll with the print when still inside the drum to move it to the Drytac, to flatten and mounting the thing. This is about having the right gear, we are still novices in that and preparing the "concrete mixer".

Single problem is printer's skills, one has to nail the big print to be like the small prototypes, so one has to work the small prototypes with the exactly same Lux on the easel than later on the wall to avoid LIRF effects, paper is suprisingly cheap (around 15€ to 20€ per m2, depending on brand) if we nail the big print in the first try, having to repeat a monster print is quite painful, beyond paper cost it takes time.

Another important factor is a condenser enlarger with a LED lamp retrofit, this illuminates the wall quite well without reheating the head, this allows to stop the lens some two stops to get peak optic performance and DOF, so you need less a G or N (Rodentock) class lens that were better at relatively large apertures.

You're going to have a much easier time getting flat prints if you tape the damp, squeegeed prints with gummed tape to a suitable flat surface and leave them to air dry. Yes the big vacuum press can flatten them pretty well, but nowhere near as well as if they've been dried under tension. Obviously, if you dry mount, that solves the problem too. I've put literal kilometres of dry mount tissue etc through a big vacuum press & am not terribly enamoured of them.

I think you're going to learn pretty quickly why most mural printers prefer diffusion sources... Unless you really enjoy retouching.

And enjoy watching the diffraction kick in on the enlarger lens as you stop down too far.
 
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138S

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Nice enlargers !

This was about a 5X enlargement, exposure was 10.5 s at f 11 with a 180mm f5.6 El Nikkor .

This would be 45s at 10x, which is pertty fine at f/11...

I have big drums, don't like as much as trays.

Of course, trays are better as workflow is pipelined, problem comes when the print is really big, if it has say 2m then the "concrete mixer" has the advantage. Wen tranys don't fit in our sink then it's when the "concrete mixer" is necessary.
 

Pieter12

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I've done the "trough" method of developing 6 foot long pan shots. That was a long time ago. Much younger :happy:.

I have 2 Zone VI 5×7 + 8×10 -enlargers with twin tube VC cold light heads. This was about a 5X enlargement, exposure was 10.5 s at f 11 with a 180mm f5.6 El Nikkor . Metrolux II integrating timer. No problem with light intensity. I have big drums, don't like as much as trays.
My enlargers and my old large self :smile:
View attachment 236530
View attachment 236531
As an aside, I noticed the folding table to holding your easel. It doesn't seem too solid--wouldn't that introduce alignment and vibration issues?
 
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mshchem

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As an aside, I noticed the folding table to holding your easel. It doesn't seem too solid--wouldn't that introduce alignment and vibration issues?
No, everything is level on 6 inches of concrete. I have other enlargers with fancy tables, this surprised me how well it works. There's no traffic or external vibration. I'm very careful. One careless bump and I recheck everything. Somehow I have a level floor. For split grade printing, I don't need to touch the table or enlarger, the controls/timer are independent.

When I first set up I built a huge platform, must have weighted 250 lbs. I moved it to add the 5x7 enlarger, I slid the table in to play around a bit and I fell in love. It's a substantial table.
 

138S

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You're going to have a much easier time getting flat prints if you tape the damp, squeegeed prints with gummed tape to a suitable flat surface and leave them to air dry. Yes the big vacuum press can flatten them pretty well, but nowhere near as well as if they've been dried under tension. Obviously, if you dry mount, that solves the problem too. I've put literal kilometres of dry mount tissue etc through a big vacuum press & am not terribly enamoured of them.

I've found a big improvement with that vacuum hot press, a trick is spraying some distilled water in the back before press, and after press I leave the prints to get cold between mat board sheets. No wave remains in the edges which is the most important, I guess.

Also I find that surface enhances when using silicone paper under emulsion. I may try again the method your point, but I'm impressed by the Drytac.



I think you're going to learn pretty quickly why most mural printers prefer diffusion sources... Unless you really enjoy retouching.

The Durst 138 has an accessory they call LAPAL (not the LAPLA lens board ), it's a bare ground glass that's inserted in the filter drawer. With that you obtain a mid point between diffusion and condenser: callier effect disappears and still we have a powerful and efficient illumination, so you have best of diffusion and best of condenser. Degree of diffusuion can be adjusted with a more or less frosted glass. Then the bulb has a convenient XYZ position adjustment, compensating fall-off or generating it for aesthetics, it can even compensate off-axis fall-off produced when the view camera had shift/rise !!! This is a great advantage...


And enjoy watching the diffraction kick in on the enlarger lens as you stop down too far.

I only stop until the lens sweet point, if light level is too high then I adjust the RGB LED power, which also allows easy split grade and it also works as a variable contrast head.
 
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mshchem

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I've found a big improvement with that vacuum hot press, a trick is spraying some distilled water in the back before press, and after press I leave the prints to get cold between mat board sheets. No wave remains in the edges which is the most important, I guess.

Moisture equilibrium. In the old days glycol print flattening solution and big drum dryers, same trick with taping to a flat surface.
It only stays flat as long as you have adequate humidity.

I still like to dry mount prints I am going to keep, it's simple and it works.
 

voceumana

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I learned on FB materials, as it was all that was readily available back then. Only really did up to 11x14, and usually did 8x10 max. Double weight paper wasn't hard, single weight in 5x7 and 8x10 needed more care. I've got to say, I really appreciate the modern resin coated papers--they've improved greatly from where they started.
 

Colin Corneau

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Strictly boring stuff. I need to get ahold of some wacky tobacco :smile:.

Totally legal up here, just saying.

Kidding aside, you have a great setup there. Stainless steel sink, even better. I've got everything I need for a darkroom except the space...it's really making me antsy.
 

138S

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I've put literal kilometres of dry mount tissue etc

I still like to dry mount prints I am going to keep, it's simple and it works.

I'd ask what mounting adhesives would you recommend ? now I started testing with some Flobond that came with the (used) HGP260 , still learning, but I'd ask what reliable alternatives in the adhesives are out there for different situations ?

One may have several pitfalls in that terrain, ending in a yellowed print from acidity !
 
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mshchem

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I always used Seal brand, I haven’t bought any tissue in a long time. Every supplier today is new to me.
 

138S

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I always used Seal brand, I haven’t bought any tissue in a long time. Every supplier today is new to me.

Thanks, I've gone to their web and I've seen they have some interesting products.
 
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I've done the "trough" method of developing 6 foot long pan shots. That was a long time ago. Much younger :happy:.

I have 2 Zone VI 5×7 + 8×10 -enlargers with twin tube VC cold light heads. This was about a 5X enlargement, exposure was 10.5 s at f 11 with a 180mm f5.6 El Nikkor . Metrolux II integrating timer. No problem with light intensity. I have big drums, don't like as much as trays.
My enlargers and my old large self :smile:
View attachment 236530
View attachment 236531
NIce darkroom. Can you tell us how you attached the 4x4 cleats to the wall for mounting your enlargers?
 

Paul Ozzello

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I've done the "trough" method of developing 6 foot long pan shots. That was a long time ago. Much younger :happy:.

I have 2 Zone VI 5×7 + 8×10 -enlargers with twin tube VC cold light heads. This was about a 5X enlargement, exposure was 10.5 s at f 11 with a 180mm f5.6 El Nikkor . Metrolux II integrating timer. No problem with light intensity. I have big drums, don't like as much as trays.
My enlargers and my old large self :smile:
View attachment 236530
View attachment 236531

That's an impressive setup. I gave up making large darkroom prints in favor of drum scanning and an large format Epson inkjet printer converted to piezography. Your darkroom is tempting me to print some digital negatives :smile:
 

Lachlan Young

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I've found a big improvement with that vacuum hot press, a trick is spraying some distilled water in the back before press, and after press I leave the prints to get cold between mat board sheets. No wave remains in the edges which is the most important, I guess.

Also I find that surface enhances when using silicone paper under emulsion. I may try again the method your point, but I'm impressed by the Drytac.

What I was getting at is that while it definitely flattens the paper very well, it doesn't do it as well as two bristol boards in a traditional dry mount press - which in its turn isn't as perfect as the drum-skin flat finish of a print dried taped under tension. The differences are, in the bigger picture, pretty small, but they are there & you have to pick & choose the compromises you are prepared to live with. More of a headache is the willingness of the silicone film to pick up all sorts of marks & microscopic debris & deboss them into the face of the print - cutting a new piece of film for every print gets old (and expensive) fast, but if you want a perfect finish, it's often necessary.

I use the permanent bond, neutral pH tissue - mainly because the heat de-bondable stuff doesn't have the best reputation for staying stuck & if a conservator really needs to de-bond the print, it can be done with solvents. If extreme archival permanence is necessary, I don't dry mount, I much prefer to use properly archival, fully reversible methods like float mounting etc.

The Durst 138 has an accessory they call LAPAL (not the LAPLA lens board ), it's a bare ground glass that's inserted in the filter drawer. With that you obtain a mid point between diffusion and condenser: callier effect disappears and still we have a powerful and efficient illumination, so you have best of diffusion and best of condenser. Degree of diffusuion can be adjusted with a more or less frosted glass. Then the bulb has a convenient XYZ position adjustment, compensating fall-off or generating it for aesthetics, it can even compensate off-axis fall-off produced when the view camera had shift/rise !!! This is a great advantage...

You should take a closer look at the 138's optical path - the LAPAL is intended to diffuse a projector bulb (e.g. something like this Philips 375E) to deliver about the same coverage as the pear shaped monstrosities do. With the right opal glass & suitable heat extraction, you could probably run a much greater variety of bulbs than you might otherwise think.

For what you are intending however, placing a sheet of diffusion between the condensers will get you rather closer to what you propose.

Essentially the system is a semi-focused beam using a diffused opal bulb & clear condensers - if I were to design an LED system to allow you to continue to use the condensers, I'd make a diffused flat panel that matches the aperture hole between lamp box & mirror box - more importantly it eliminates the compromise Durst had to adopt in the late 1940's/ early 1950's to get even illumination. You could probably fabricate something that could drop in to the same slot as the filter holder. If I were going to dedicate the head to mural work, I'd seriously consider getting 200w of LED into the head.



I only stop until the lens sweet point, if light level is too high then I adjust the RGB LED power, which also allows easy split grade and it also works as a variable contrast head.

Most current enlarging lenses (depending on max aperture) hit optimal performance at f4.7-8 - going below that in a sharpness critical environment (like mural printing) becomes unpleasantly obvious rather quickly. Rodagon-G's are great for 135 & 120 & aren't necessary for larger formats unless you are going to truly extreme scales - do you need to go bigger than 40x50" or 48x60" - or are you writing about hypotheticals?
 
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mshchem

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NIce darkroom. Can you tell us how you attached the 4x4 cleats to the wall for mounting your enlargers?
I let in a 2x12 into the wall studs. Cut the center stud to allow the 2x12 to be flush. Then used SPAX brand (amazing German designed ) lags to fasten both ends to the outer studs, the 4x4's are lagged to the 2x12, and the enlargers are lagged to the 4x4s and the 2x12. I have the hardware to run guy wires to the wall, but not necessary, no vibration. I was in the right place when the original owner of these two enlargers wanted them gone. Worked out great.
I'm lucky, my wife is an artist, she's been very supportive of my obsession.
 
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mshchem

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Just remembered, I glued and screwed the 4x4's to a 5/4 (actual 1 inch thick) Oak board the screwed that to the 2x12 and the studs. This isn't going anywhere.
 
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