Beware Amazon fulfillment of Ilford Paper order

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Sirius Glass

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The OP's problem was because of a clerk at the store, not Amazon's fault. However I have had more than a few badly packaged items which were packed at an Amazon facility.
 

wiltw

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"K&M Camera was the seller on Amazon." Therein lies the explanation... it is NOT 'Amazon fault'...it is the retailer's fault, in this case Amazon was not the retailer, it merely provided a sales vehicle for a separately owned business entity!

I did a bit more research, and found Ilford paper 'sold by K&M'...and this IS indeed an example of a retailer using the centralized inventory held by Amazon and shipped by Amazon...'shipped by Amazon' clearly in the product information.
'Fulfillment by Amazon':
"With Fulfillment by Amazon (FBA), you store your products in our fulfillment centers, and we pick, pack, ship, and provide customer service for these products."​
Amazon also maintains a 'Delivery Service Partner' So the remaining question is 'How did that inventory get to Amazon or the Amazon Delivery Service Partner...was it sent there by the retailer, or did Amazon or its Amazon Delivery Service Partner get it directly from the Ilford distributor?', so that a finger of blame can be appropriately pointed.
 

BrianShaw

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Also verified earlier by querying the tracking number in the original picture. :wink:
 

Adrian Bacon

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How did you get burned? The paper inside is in a sealed plastic bag, so even those broken adhesive strips are not going to cause the paper to be exposed. Obviously not optimally packed, but not a disaster.

Not sealed, folded. Back it goes.

I'm an Amazon merchant (self fulfilled), it should have been shipped in at least a ripstop mailer. It looks like all the FBA people did was slap the shipping label on the paper box and ship it. K&M would do good to pre put those in the ripstop mailers already and then put the FBA sticker on the outside of that for exactly this reason.

I doubt the paper box came open because the manufacturers label would have been broken for that to happen, and yes, while the bag inside is not sealed but merely folded, it's folded under the weight of the paper, so in order for it to come open and expose the paper, the box has to come all the way open, and all the paper lift out enough that it can unfold.

Was it delivered by an Amazon truck or by a carrier?
 

Adrian Bacon

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"K&M Camera was the seller on Amazon." Therein lies the explanation... it is NOT 'Amazon fault'...it is the retailer's fault, in this case Amazon was not the retailer, it merely provided a sales vehicle for a separately owned business entity!

That's not entirely correct. If the seller is using Amazon to fulfill their orders, then yes, it is Amazon's fault. If the seller is self-fulfilling, then it's their fault.

Amazon has three types of sellers: 1. Sold and shipped by Amazon, 2. sold by third party, shipped by Amazon (FBA), and 3. sold and shipped by third party.

1. is exactly what it sounds like, Amazon is the merchant, and shipper.
2. The third party is the merchant, but they ship all their inventory to Amazon in big giant shipments, and Amazon puts their product in their fulfillment centers, and Amazon ships it out for them as the orders come in. This is fulfilled by Amazon or FBA.
3. The third party is the merchant, but retains custody of the sold goods and is responsible for shipping the products themselves.
 

Adrian Bacon

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I won't use Amazon on principle, they are are a main factor in the demise of brick-and-mortar shops. And when I do mail order (as there are now many things impossible to buy any other way) I make sure it is what I want before I order it.

They're only the demise of brick and mortar stores because brick and mortar stores are being dumb and not selling on Amazon. There is nothing stopping every mom and pop shop from signing up to sell on Amazon and automatically getting *all* the sales for all the items they carry for everybody buying those items in their local region. Unless their pricing is way out of line, Amazon will give the sale to the seller that can have it in the customer's hand fastest. Believe me, they can self fulfill and send stuff out the same day and have it delivered the next day and totally wallop Amazon fulfilled delivery promises AND get nation-wide exposure and ship to the rest of the U.S. Every time I hear some shop owner complain about Amazon making it hard for them to stay in business, I just simply ask them why they're not selling on Amazon. It's literally sales on easy mode. Still operate the brick and mortar storefront for locals that prefer to shop in store, AND operate on Amazon and ship stuff out for all the Amazon buyers in your region. Your store is your warehouse. You pick and pack off your store shelf. That's what I do, and a huge portion of my Amazon sales are all shipped out to addresses that are regionally local to me.
 

Adrian Bacon

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Unsure. Found it on my doorstep. Could have been either...

If it was FBA, it was probably an Amazon truck, if it was self fulfilled, it was whatever carrier the seller uses (USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc)

EDIT: looking at the front of the box, it was USPS. I'm surprised that they accepted that from the seller. It was heavy enough it had to go priority mail, and USPS gives free shipping supplies for that.

EDIT2: Parcel Select is priority mail but for short distances, i.e. same region
 
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They're only the demise of brick and mortar stores because brick and mortar stores are being dumb and not selling on Amazon. There is nothing stopping every mom and pop shop from signing up to sell on Amazon and automatically getting *all* the sales for all the items they carry for everybody buying those items in their local region.
Then they would cease to be brick and mortar stores. Why would they continue renting a high street shop if most or all of their sales are on-line?

You misunderstood me. I am not mainly concerned about Mom and Pop making a living (which seems to be where you are coming from - a business seller yourself?), I am mainly concerned about my ability to see and try stuff before I buy it. Bought some boots on-line last month and they don't fit, but I now have to go a long way to find a brick and mortar shoe shop because all the nearer ones have closed.

I'm also concerned about stuff getting lost or damaged in delivery - where I live the independent couriers* are a nightmare, half of them can't find me and I have to spend ages on the phone** or composing and exchanging e-mails - and still might never get the item. I would not dare to mail-order a camera worth £1000s for example. And most business sellers are not co-operative about tracing lost stuff or my sending damaged or wrong stuff back - as far as they are concerned once they put it in the hands of the courier it's job done.

===================================
* Independent couriers as opposed to the UK Royal Mail. The latter are no problem - regular postman and they actually use my mailbox. The independent courier drivers are never the same guy twice and half of them can't find me (I am rural) and when/if they do they leave stuff on the gatepost in the rain; but a few pence cheaper for the sender I'm told and they will end up putting Royal Mail out of business, at least in areas like mine.

** If I can even get through on the phone - Amazon, Ebay etc put every possible obstacle in your way, their main response is a robot telling you to sod off and look at their website.
 
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Adrian Bacon

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Then they would cease to be brick and mortar stores. Why would they continue renting a high street shop if most or all of their sales are on-line?

You misunderstood me. I am not mainly concerned about Mom and Pop making a living (which seems to be where you are coming from - a business seller yourself?), I am mainly concerned about my ability to see and try stuff before I buy it. Bought some boots on-line last month and they don't fit, but I now have to go a long way to find a brick and mortar shoe shop because all the nearer ones have closed.

I'm also concerned about stuff getting lost or damaged in delivery - where I live the independent couriers* are a nightmare, half of them can't find me and I have to spend ages on the phone** or composing and exchanging e-mails - and still might never get the item. I would not dare to mail-order a camera worth £1000s for example. And most business sellers are not co-operative about tracing lost stuff or my sending damaged or wrong stuff back - as far as they are concerned once they put it in the hands of the courier it's job done.

===================================
* Independent couriers as opposed to the UK Royal Mail. The latter are no problem - regular postman and they actually use my mailbox. The independent courier drivers are never the same guy twice and half of them can't find me (I am rural) and when/if they do they leave stuff on the gatepost in the rain; but a few pence cheaper for the sender I'm told and they will end up putting Royal Mail out of business, at least in areas like mine.

** If I can even get through on the phone - Amazon, Ebay etc put every possible obstacle in your way, their main response is a robot telling you to sod off and look at their website.

It's still a brick and mortar that people can go to and shop in-person. Picking and packing off your store shelves doesn't cease to make it a storefront. Grocery stores in my area that support online shopping do the same thing. They have a dedicated person that walks around the store with a grocery cart and list of items to grab for one or more orders, grab those items off the shelf, then take them to the packing area and get them staged for delivery. You can either go to the store and buy your groceries in person, or place your order online and have it delivered. They just simply stop losing the sales that would be online anyway. You still maintain the brick and mortar for locals that want to come in and try stuff out. It's the best of both worlds. Maybe as things go more and more online you downsize the size of your shop, but the point is, you maintain a physical storefront for in-person shopping. Had those brick and mortar shops started selling through Amazon and eBay, they'd still probably be open, maybe located to a smaller shop, but at least still open.

Also, this may be locale specific, but local delivery doesn't mean using local couriers. Amazon doesn't support that, you ship it using standard shipping carriers, here in the U.S. that means USPS, UPS, Fedex, and DHL. I personally prefer USPS because pretty much everybody here in the U.S. can receive mail, so mailing them their order is simple and easy, and at least here in the U.S. USPS is extremely cost competitive. This may be different in other countries.
 

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My anecdotal observation suggests that Ilford may be the real culprit. As I mentioned here many times before, a close friend of mine owns and runs a camera store, and I have observed more than a few times when they unbox the shipment coming straight from the distributor, they find many of the 100-sheet boxes (unusually the 25-sheet boxes are fine) have some of those tapes either undone or broken. They end up having to re-tape them with their own tapes. My friend says it's been like that for quite a while. Again, this is anecdotal, so, take it as such.

Having said the above, the shipper (whoever that is) should bear some responsibility. They should have at least put the merchandise in a box instead of just slapping a shipping label of the merchandise itself to ship it unprotected.
 

MattKing

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If your friend is in the US, their camera store doesn't receive anything from Harman/Ilford, they receive it from the US distributor, the distribution arm of Roberts Camera.
Of course Roberts receives it - via boat - from Harman in the UK.
 

Tom-Thomas

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If your friend is in the US, their camera store doesn't receive anything from Harman/Ilford, they receive it from the US distributor, the distribution arm of Roberts Camera.
Of course Roberts receives it - via boat - from Harman in the UK.

Yes, I understood (and mentioned) that the supplies come from the distributor but not directly from Ilford. And, yes, the distributor get them from Ilford. There may be many, many "hands" involved in between, and those tapes could have got undone or broken anywhere along that supply chain, but ultimately, Ilford is responsible for making sure that their packaging would withstand the vigor of shipping and handling through the journey along the supply chain. Right?
 

MattKing

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Yes, I understood (and mentioned) that the supplies come from the distributor but not directly from Ilford. And, yes, the distributor get them from Ilford. There may be many, many "hands" involved in between, and those tapes could have got undone or broken anywhere along that supply chain, but ultimately, Ilford is responsible for making sure that their packaging would withstand the vigor of shipping and handling through the journey along the supply chain. Right?

I think the responsibility lies with the distributor - that is who your friend buys it from. And it's up to the distributor to make sure that the product they get from their supplier - Harman, who they buy from - is in good shape.
 

Tom-Thomas

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I think the responsibility lies with the distributor - that is who your friend buys it from. And it's up to the distributor to make sure that the product they get from their supplier - Harman, who they buy from - is in good shape.
I have to disagree. Going by you rationale, you could also argue that the responsibility lies with individual stores as they should (to use your argument) "make sure that the product they get from their supplier — [the distributor], who they buy from — is in good shape." It's just passing the buck, IMO.

With the huge amount involved, I doubt that the distributor would even routinely examine the goods when they receive them.

The thing is, Ilford is a major player. It's not like the stores can simply go "F it, we just don't carry Ilford papers." It's not like in the past when we had many, many papers to choose from.
 

MattKing

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No, it isn't passing the buck.
There is one single distributor for the entire USA, and they control the distribution of every single piece of Ilford branded product sold in Ilford's largest market.
They receive, warehouse, distribute and handle shipping of every single piece of that product.
If they are shipping that product in a manner that is deleterious to the product, that is their fault.
If they are receiving that product in a condition that is either already damaged or renders it overly vulnerable to damage, they are in the very best position to raise that problem with the manufacturer - Harman - who sells each and every piece of that product to them - not to the retailer or to the end user.
They are the ones who are being paid to get the product to the stores. The problem is theirs to identify and deal with. Most likely that will require the with the cooperation of the manufacturer, but if the problem originates after they get their hands on it ......
 

Don_ih

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Ilford may be the real culprit

Ilford didn't stick a mailing label on an unprotected paper box and toss it in the mail.

Yes, Ilford could be using tougher tape. Books, however, are generally not shrink wrapped or taped closed and you can pretty much always go to a book store and see almost 100% of the new books are unblemished.
 

Tom-Thomas

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Ilford didn't stick a mailing label on an unprotected paper box and toss it in the mail.
Yes, I agree, but I did say in my post:
Having said the above, the shipper (whoever that is) should bear some responsibility. They should have at least put the merchandise in a box instead of just slapping a shipping label of the merchandise itself to ship it unprotected.
 

Don_ih

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Yes, I agree, but I did say in my post: the shipper (whoever that is) should bear some responsibility

But, in terms of reality, they should bear all responsibility. Many fragile things are manufactures that require careful handling in spite of the practical protections offered by original packaging. A carton of eggs, for instance, is made to keep the eggs safe within reason during transport and sale - but no one would put a stamp on that and put it in the mail.
 

BrianShaw

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they should bear all responsibility
It seems that definitions might be in order since some of the recent discussion may be a bit confusing because of using words diferently. Pronouns, such as "they", don't help either.

In this story, isn't the manufacturer Harman, the distributor Roberts, the "retailer" K&M Camera, the fulfillment entity Amazon, and the shipping agent was USPS. I would hope that the fulfillment agent wouldn't ship a product with broken tape but maybe they did. The certainly should not have just slapped a mailing label on the box. Who really cares where in the process how or where the tape broke. The blame-game isn't worth playing especially since the fulfillment agent made good on the situation without question. The consequences and inconvenience were irritating but exceedingly minor.
 

Don_ih

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Pronouns, such as "they", don't help either.

"They" referred to the quoted subject, namely the people who stuck the mailing label on the box and put it in the mail. A paper box is good protection for the paper on a store shelf, on a darkroom shelf, on a warehouse shelf, even - as long as it's on a shelf.

As for the tape, who cares?
 

Tom-Thomas

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But, in terms of reality, they should bear all responsibility. Many fragile things are manufactures that require careful handling in spite of the practical protections offered by original packaging. A carton of eggs, for instance, is made to keep the eggs safe within reason during transport and sale - but no one would put a stamp on that and put it in the mail.
Oh, I agree. Not arguing about that. But I do think that Ilford's packaging is less than solid.
I think they should use more and stronger tapes and I think the black plastic bag inside should be heat sealed instead of just having the opening folded over and taped down.
I am not sure but I seem to remember many years ago I have used a brand of papers which they packaged with double-lid boxes.
 

Tom-Thomas

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It seems that definitions might be in order since some of the recent discussion may be a bit confusing because of using words diferently. Pronouns, such as "they", don't help either.
It's common to use "they" to refer to a business entity. E.g., "I hate Walmart. They are evil." Or "I like Ilford. They make great products."
It's also common to use "they" to refer to unidentified or uncertain individuals. E.g., "They stole my car." Even though I have no idea whether there was just 1 thief or there were many thieves involved.
 

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It's common to use "they" to refer to a business entity. E.g., "I hate Walmart. They are evil." Or "I like Ilford. They make great products."
It's also common to use "they" to refer to unidentified or uncertain individuals. E.g., "They stole my car." Even though I have no idea whether there was just 1 thief or there were many thieves involved.

Just an aside: Isn’t it or was it standard practice to use the singular for an entity? Such as, “I hate Walmart. It’s evil.” I’ve noticed only in the past ten years or less its become more common in Europe/UK (the plural pronoun - now it’s spreading here to US). Perhaps I’ve missed something grammar-wise all these years with selective reading and writing. “Exxon, it had a profitable year.” (?)
 
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Just an aside: Isn’t it or was it standard practice to use the singular for an entity? Such as, “I hate Walmart. It’s evil.”

In the USA, it's probably because these entities have succesfully lobbied to twist the law into defining their corporations as "persons", except for when it comes to obeying laws that pertain to a person.
 
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