Best ways to use expired paper

hiroh · Aug 28, 2024

Someone gifted me several boxes of FB and RC paper years before I had a darkroom. I’ve got at least 200-250 sheets of 16x20in paper, but they’re probably expired based on the appearance of the boxes (and the price tags of $14.99!). I haven’t used them yet because I’m still a beginner in the darkroom, and I didn’t want to deal with fogging when I was expecting good results. So, I’ve been buying new paper instead. But now that I’ve gained some experience, I want to experiment with this old paper.

What would be your approach? How would you test the paper for fogging and get the best results with it? Since these are large sheets, I’m thinking of cutting them into smaller pieces to test alongside new paper. The challenge is that the new paper is a different type and from a different manufacturer, so the results won’t be directly comparable. Almost every box is a different type of paper.

I’ve read about using a restrainer, but I want to test it as is first, and then advance into adding restrainer, maybe bleach? What do you suggest?

AnselMortensen · Aug 28, 2024

One of the best uses for old expired paper is Lith Printing.
Because you're a beginner, I wouldn't recommend you starting out by trying Lith Printing.
People doing Lith Printing would be ecstatic to have a stock of 16x20 paper like yours to work with.

Option #1:
Find someone who does Lith Printing near you, and trade them your paper for a supply of new paper of your choice for you to learn with.

Option #2:
Cut some of your 16x20 paper down to 8x10 size, and you will have 4x as many sheets to learn with.

** Note: I once gave away (3) 50 sheet boxes of Oriental G3 16x20 Fiber paper because I couldn't bear the thought of cutting it to 8x10.

**Note: If any of your paper is Foma brand or Arista EDU brand, you will need a RED 1A safelight, not an amber OC..otherwise you will fog the paper.

Benzotriazole is generally considered the best anti-fog agent for old papers.
A 1% solution added to the paper developers is a good starting point.

If the paper has light, even fogging, it might be possible to bleach fogged prints back to a semblance of normal, but this is an advanced technique NOT recommended for a darkroom beginner.

hiroh · Aug 29, 2024

Thanks, @AnselMortensen!
I love lith prints, but I’m not quite there yet. It’s great to know this paper could be used for that. One day, one day...

I have a few boxes of Oriental and Agfa, and the rest are various Ilford FB and RC papers.

MattKing · Aug 29, 2024

Take your 16"x20" paper and cut one sheet into a bunch of 5"x8" sheets.
Take some of your new paper and cut it into 5"x8" sheets.
Make a nice print on the 5"x8" sheets of the new paper - a print you are happy with.
See how close you can get to equaling that nice new paper print on the 5"x8" old paper.
That will tell you whether or not you can use the old paper reasonably normally.
Sometimes, old paper loses contrast, but otherwise behaves. But you may be able to adjust for that.

bedrof · Aug 29, 2024

hiroh said:
Thanks, @AnselMortensen!
I love lith prints, but I’m not quite there yet. It’s great to know this paper could be used for that. One day, one day...

I have a few boxes of Oriental and Agfa, and the rest are various Ilford FB and RC papers.

I have some rather old Ilford, Forte and Oriental papers (20+ years old), most of them are fine for classic prints.

Don_ih · Aug 29, 2024

If your Ilford is MG II or III, it's probably too fogged for any use. It's also no good for lith printing.
The Agfa will probably be at least a bit fogged.
The Oriental is a bit less likely to be fogged.
All these papers will have lost contrast, even if they're not visibly fogged. That's something that happens -- unless you're lucky and these are all grade 4 or 5 paper.

The way to test is make a print using a known-good negative. Leave a nice margin on your print. You need to see how grey the unexposed parts of the paper develop.

The top and bottom sheets in your boxes are likely to be fogged worse than the rest, so don't do your test on those sheets.

Paper that is not too badly fogged can be used for paper negatives.

Agulliver · Aug 29, 2024

I've used paper that was 20 years expired (2002 in 2022) and other than requiring a longer time under the enlarger it was fine. I've even experimented with bromide paper which expired in the 1970s and manager to create decent prints with it.

Try some, you might be surprised.

Saganich · Aug 29, 2024

Agreed, I found a 250 count box of RC expired 2007 from an electron microscopy lab and figured it WAS trash and decided to play around. To my surprise only the top sheet was fogged and the rest was perfect

MTGseattle · Aug 29, 2024

I recently got a box of 11x14 Forte VC warmtone semi-matte. I couldn't find a date on the box. It seems ok. Of note is the Forte data sheet; they have their own filter chart for use with dichroic heads. It is a drastically different chart from what I normally use.

Melvin J Bramley · Aug 29, 2024

Ilford paper has the best chance of being ok.
Any Agfa RC paper will likely be fogged as the paper has developer incorporated in the emulsion.
Fibre based Agfa could still be good.
I have 20 year old Ilford paper that still produces good prints.
The paper most likely to fog , and a lot, is Kodak RC.

john_s · Aug 29, 2024

hiroh said:
Thanks, @AnselMortensen!
I love lith prints, but I’m not quite there yet. It’s great to know this paper could be used for that. One day, one day...

I have a few boxes of Oriental and Agfa, and the rest are various Ilford FB and RC papers.

In my experience, Agfa Brovira from the 1970s has held up remarkably well.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 29, 2024

Compare the paper with itself to see if it's fogged. Cut two strips from a sheet of paper. Run one unexposed strip through the entire develop-stop-fix process. Just fix the other unexposed strip. Then compare the two. If they are the same white, there's no fogging. If the paper is fogged, the developed strip will be darker than the fixed strip. Assuming your safelight is really safe, this means the paper has aged or been stored improperly.

If the fogging is slight, you can often deal with it with restrainers (BTA or potassium bromide) or with bleaching after fixing. There are lots of threads on this, so search here for more info.

Really fogged paper is good for lith prints and a few other things, likely mentioned above .

Best,

Doremus

Don_ih · Aug 29, 2024

Doremus Scudder said:
likely mentioned above

The best kind of response: one that doesn't bother to read anyone else's...

Bill Burk · Aug 29, 2024

Maybe good for a base for alt processes or emulsion making (e.g., fix, wash and dry then you have a good quality paper with baryta coating to print on.) A friend on a Facebook group about Alternative processes, Katherine Zelda would take the paper if you can’t use it. to coat with a homebrew emulsion using a formula by Mark Osterman (of Osterman and Scully, Rochester).

Don’t cut the paper until you find out the part that’s good. For example this 11x14 Kodabromide F3 single weight paper is slightly fogged on the open end of the package. As I go deeper in the box it’s getting better but still I would only use the middle.

A piece that’s fixed without developing shows the base paper. I don’t know why every corner is cracked but it’s probably the way I pull out each sheet without fully opening the wrapper.

It’s frustrating to use fogged paper. You’ll doubt that the fixer is fresh and think you turned the white light on too soon. You’ll wonder why your best print looks off.

So definitely do use it experimentally after you have confidence from using fresh paper for a while.

Agulliver · Aug 30, 2024

john_s said:
In my experience, Agfa Brovira from the 1970s has held up remarkably well.

In the bunch of 1970s bromide papers that I was given in 2019, and used in 2019 and 2022 there was a box of Agfa Brovira. Honestly it performed wonderfully.

BobUK · Aug 30, 2024

Extract of Post.............

AnselMortensen said:
...............Benzotriazole is generally considered the best anti-fog agent for old papers.
A 1% solution added to the paper developers is a good starting point................

I often read this Benzotriazole suggestion, but never had any luck using it in any of the proportions mentioned in books and internet posts.

To get useable results what proportions of 1% Benzotriazole to Paper Developer do you start with, and also the maximum proportion?

Thank you.

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2024

You can't make a 1% solution of Benzotriazole. I make a .1% solution (1 g/litre). Add 5ml of that to your paper dev and check the results. If the impact is not enough, add another 5ml. It will slow the developer overall. When it works best, the darkest parts of the print will appear fastest, and the midtones will fill in more slowly. You really can't let it develop to "completion" or the fog will return. But the highlights fog much slower, so you can easily put the print in stop.

BobUK · Aug 30, 2024

Don_ih said:
You can't make a 1% solution of Benzotriazole. I make a .1% solution (1 g/litre). Add 5ml of that to your paper dev and check the results. If the impact is not enough, add another 5ml. It will slow the developer overall. When it works best, the darkest parts of the print will appear fastest, and the midtones will fill in more slowly. You really can't let it develop to "completion" or the fog will return. But the highlights fog much slower, so you can easily put the print in stop.

Thank you for answering Don.
The comment on 1% and 0.1% Benzotriazole sent me straight to my chemicals.
I have a bottle of 1% Benzotriazole that I mixed about three years ago in my darkroom.
Admittedly there are a few very fine crystal that have not mixed into solution, but I think it is as close as can be to 1%.

In the book "The Print by Ansel Adams"
page 118 RESTRAINER AND ANTI-FOG SOLUTIONS it says,
"I usually add 1 percent benzotriazole solution in quantities of 25cc per liter of stock Dektol.

I think this is the place that I found the concentration of 1%

Although very interesting, I hope not to divert this thread from its original question.

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2024

BobUK said:
I have a bottle of 1% Benzotriazole that I mixed about three years ago in my darkroom.
Admittedly there are a few very fine crystal that have not mixed into solution, but I think it is as close as can be to 1%.

Apparently, you should only be able to get .5 g to dissolve in 100ml of water at 23 degrees celsius. I don't know about if you make the water hotter - and I don't know if a super-saturated solution will continue to hold the "extra" for very long. I know I can't get any more than that to dissolve in water at room temperature - so I make a .1% solution.

Carnie Bob · Aug 30, 2024

I use expired papers to accelerate the developer or mature it when making lith prints. Expose the sheets to light and then put them into the dev.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 30, 2024

Don_ih said:
The best kind of response: one that doesn't bother to read anyone else's...

Oh, I skimmed through the responses, but didn't want to be absolutely positive that I hadn't missed something.

It's not necessary to read every response thoroughly in order to answer the OP's question or contribute to the conversation. Any problems with my suggestions?

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder · Aug 30, 2024

Don_ih said:
You can't make a 1% solution of Benzotriazole. I make a .1% solution (1 g/litre). Add 5ml of that to your paper dev and check the results. If the impact is not enough, add another 5ml. It will slow the developer overall. When it works best, the darkest parts of the print will appear fastest, and the midtones will fill in more slowly. You really can't let it develop to "completion" or the fog will return. But the highlights fog much slower, so you can easily put the print in stop.

Don_ih said:
Apparently, you should only be able to get .5 g to dissolve in 100ml of water at 23 degrees celsius. I don't know about if you make the water hotter - and I don't know if a super-saturated solution will continue to hold the "extra" for very long. I know I can't get any more than that to dissolve in water at room temperature - so I make a .1% solution.

I've made both 1% and 2% BTA solutions with just warm tap water. The 2% solution does seem to drop some precipitate when the darkroom temperatures get colder, so I use 1% now. No problems with everything staying in solution. I'm not sure what your problem might be. Wikipedia's page on BTA lists the solubility in water as 20g/L, a 2% solution. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzotriazole.

Best,

Doremus

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2024

Doremus Scudder said:
It's not necessary to read every response thoroughly in order to answer the OP's question or contribute to the conversation. Any problems with my suggestions?

No problems whatsoever with your suggestions. If there had been 50 responses instead of just 10 prior to yours, I wouldn't have commented.

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2024

Doremus Scudder said:
I'm not sure what your problem might be.

This is my source. The Danish Ministry of the Environment, apparently. I never noticed where it was from, before. Looks like most other sources I can find say 25 g/l. It is odd, though - because I can't get near that amount to dissolve in room temperature water.
Well, if you can, great.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 31, 2024

Don,

I've found that water quality makes a large difference in getting things to dissolve when you're getting close to a saturated solution. I have fairly soft and mineral-free tap water, but I need to used distilled to make, for example, PMK B solution, which is a saturated solution of metaborate. When mixed with tap water a good 30% or more of the metaborate won't go into solution. With distilled, it's fine.

So, you might try mixing your BTA with distilled water if you haven't already. I can get a 2% solution of BTA in distilled water, but it has a tendency to creep up the sides of the bottle and crystalize as well as make crystals around the cap, That's why I use a 1% solution now.

Best,

Doremus

Best ways to use expired paper

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency