Best Selenium Toner?

gregmacc

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Hi all ... Any suggestions for a good Selenium toner for a toning beginner to use. I want to get that "wet Print" look and some extended archival qualities if possible. Not really wanting to get colour if it's possible to avoid it. I would prefer to continue to use Ilford MGIV FB Glossy and Ilford MG paper developer. Thanks ...
Greg
 

RalphLambrecht

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Greg

I don't think there is much difference between selenium toners. Selenium will give blacks a bit of a punch, so some of that 'wet look' will come back. Archival protection does not come without color change, I'm afraid, unless you are using silver stabilizers such as Sistan. However, some toning is always better than none. Rule of thumb is: if you can't see a color shift, you don't have protection. But, this statement is too simple and there are exceptions. Toning is a complex subject.

If you can deal with the odor, consider direct sulfide toning in addition or as a replacement to selenium. Sulfide offers more archival protection than selenium even if briefly toned, and you can keep the color change with MGIV-FB so minimal that you need a direct side-by-side comparison to see it. Using sulfide and selenium in sequence is also a nice option and provides attractive split-toning effects. Which toner to use should also be directed by aesthetic considerations and not archival objectives alone. Selenium is good (in my opinion) for architecture and industrial photography. Sulfide is better for portraits, nudes and landscapes.

If you are concerned about archival properties, don't forget that selenium toning must be followed by a full wash since it contains thiosulfate (fixer)!
 

mhanc

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Another recommendation for Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner: 1:19 for 4-5 min. However, I would think other brands would be equivalent given the same concentrations and dilutions.
 

snallan

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I think all of the commercial selenium toners are as good as one another, although Maco's LP Selenia is said to contain 3% sodium selenite as opposed to 2% in the others.

In my experience, with MGIV you will be able to tone fully without getting any appreciable colour shift. Though at higher concentrations (> 1+9) it gives a dark aubergine/purple hint to the shadows.

For archival properties I would tone for at least 5 minutes, as selenium starts toning in the shadows, and the highlights tone later. My preference is to use a 1+9 dilution if I am after protection with the least colour change, and stronger if I am toning for colour change as well.
 

ann

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Several years ago we tested various brands in my advanced darkroom class and altho there was a slight difference, it came down to a moot point. It was very difficult to see so I didn't change brands after the test and we continue to use Kokak"s.
 

Vlad Soare

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Functionally, I think they're all the same when used in equivalent dilutions.
I prefer Rollei RSE, simply because it's totally odorless.
 

Martin Aislabie

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gregmacc said:
Thanks all for the responses so far ... If they are all as good as the rest I will probably grab some KRST as my local supplier stocks it ...
Cheers and merry Christmas
Click to expand...

Get some form of Hypo Clearing Agent at the same time.

As Ralph says, most Se toners are about 65% Fixer, so you need something to wash the silver complexes out of the paper after toning.

If you read Tim Rudmans Toning Book (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=162), Tim recommends you pre-soak prints in a HCA sol'n prior to the Se bath.

Tim Rudmans book is THE toning bible to which we all refer - if you want to dable with toning its a great read

Martin
 

George Collier

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As Ralph says, most Se toners are about 65% Fixer, so you need something to wash. . .

Wait - hold the phone - I thought that one of the reasons for using alkaline fixers (TF4 or TF5) was to reduce the need for washing time (and dispense with the need for HCA).
So - what you all are saying is that HCA is needed after selenium toner anyway?
 

Vlad Soare

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Basic fixers are said to be easier to wash off the paper because they keep the gelatin swollen. Acid environments tend to cause the gelatin to contract. That's why a basic fixer may theoretically be removed from the gelatin easier and faster. However, the biggest problem is removing the fixer and its by-products not from the gelatin, but from the paper's fibers. That's what the hypo-clearing agent is really useful for.
So personally I wouldn't skip the hypo-clear even if I used a basic fixer (which I do, actually).

I still don't understand why some selenium toners contain fixer. Assuming we start with a well processed print, there should be no silver halides there to fix, either before or after toning. So why add fixer to the toner? :confused:
 

bill spears

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I think the fixer (amonium thoisulphate) component in selenium serves a different purpose than for removing silver from the paper ?
 

fschifano

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Martin Aislabie said:
Get some form of Hypo Clearing Agent at the same time.
Click to expand...

You may, in the course of researching the subject, come across some recommendations to mix selenium toner and HCA. Don't do it! HCA is expensive, but it will last and last requiring only an occasional replenishment as it exhausts. If you mix the working solution of selenium toner with HCA, it will not last and will be good for a single session.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I prefer to keep them separate for the same reason.
 

johnnywalker

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How can you tell when the HCA solution is becoming exhausted?
 

Ian Grant

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Ansel Adams added HCA to Selenium Toner but the formula may have changed slightly over the years.

Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner contains a fair amount of Sodium Sulphite anyway so it's not really worth adding more.

The Thiosulphate is present to keep Silver which has been replaced by Selenium in solution.

Ian
 

fschifano

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Ian Grant said:
The Thiosulphate is present to keep Silver which has been replaced by Selenium in solution.
Click to expand...

So now this make sense. The sludge found at the bottom of a well used container of Selenium toner is a sign that the thiosulfate is exhausted or destroyed by any carry over of acid from an acid fixer. The sludge is silver that is no longer held in solution by the thiosulfate.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Ian Grant said:
... The Thiosulphate is present to keep Silver which has been replaced by Selenium in solution.

Ian
Click to expand...

Ian

I'm glad you took this question on, because I never understood this entirely either. I always thought that the result of toning is a compound of silver and selenium (silver-selenide). Why and how does selenium replace silver?
 

pentaxuser

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Vlad Soare said:
Functionally, I think they're all the same when used in equivalent dilutions.
I prefer Rollei RSE, simply because it's totally odorless.
Click to expand...

I thought that all selenium toners had the same amount of smell at the same dilutions. Any idea why Rollei should remain odourless? It is a big advantage provided that there isn't some ingredient missing from the Rollei selenium that makes it odourless and also makes it less useful for toning

pentaxuser
 
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