Best option for 20 year old exposed film?

[TattyJJ]

Who remembers these!

 

[TattyJJ]

The first tests are done!
For those who may (or may not) be interested, will take some quick scans and start a new thread over in the B&W section as it's probably a bit more relevant there

 

[peoplemerge]

So, I'm attempting this too, see: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rehalogenating-color-films.183203/

 

[mohmad khatab]

Well, there are basically two options: either read and learn about the process, until you understand what black&white and C-41 processes do and try to apply this you your specific task, or pay through the nose for someone else to develop your film. Given the size of your film stash, the first path seems more promising, and the folks here on APUG will happily guide you through the process.

You can get a very basic idea of what happens in C-41 film during color development here. The important points are:

1. C-41 film is a bit like regular black&white film, i.e. you can develop it with any regular black&white film developer
2. When C-41 film is developed in C-41 color developer, regular black&white development takes place. Each developer molecule, which just developed silver, will then react with special compounds called 'color couplers'. These 'color couplers' are special molecules, they are embedded in the emulsion and will form a dye molecule when they react with oxidized color developer. That's why you get colorful images.
3. It's important to understand, that in C-41 process an image forms only in those regions where silver gets developed

That last point is crucial to the procedure I suggested: you could develop film with regular black&white developer, then fix away undeveloped silver halide and thereby get a weak but stable silver image. If you convert this silver image back into silver halide (and this is called 'bleaching'), you can then redevelop that silver halide in C-41 color developer!

Now why would I recommend Rodinal 1:100 stand development for this? There is not that much established knowledge about how to optimally process 'found rolls'. Film makers earn their money not from old stuff stashed away in some attic, but from fresh product, that's where their research efforts went into. People tried all kinds of stuff with these rare finds, and their experience suggests that Rodinal 1:100 will sort of develop any kind of film in any condition. You can't really experiment much with 'found rolls': if their pics were easily replaceable, then you'd just throw them away and start from scratch. You do it, because you want to see what's left on these rolls, there's little room for risky experiments.


The colors will be 'flunky' no matter what you do. The correct time to develop these film rolls for good results was about 20 years ago. The only thing we don't know yet is whether there is any image left on these rolls. The procedure I suggested will give you this info as cheaply as it gets:

1. stand develop film in Rodinal 1:100 (search APUG for instructions)
2. stop bath
3. fix film
4. wash film
5. Take film out of film tank and inspect. If there is no visible image, then film rolls of that brand/speed are likely lost. Put them back in your priority so you don't waste time on a futile effort

If a film strips looks ok, then do the following:

1. mix a bleach from 5 g/l Potassium Hexacyanoferrate III and 10 g/l Potassium Bromide.
2. mix a clearing bath from 10 g/l Sodium Sulfite.
3. prepare a complete set of C-41 processing bathes, bring up to temperature.
   
4. put the black&white developed film back onto a film spindle and into a film tank.
5. bleach the film for 5-10 minutes
6. wash the film for 3-5 minutes
7. put film in clearing bath for about 1 minute
8. wash again for 3-5 minutes, ideally with 38°C wash water to bring the film tank up to temperature for C-41 process
9. then run through regular C-41 process

All the raw chemicals I suggested in points 1 and 2 are no more toxic or otherwise hazardous than the C-41 process bathes, and they can be gotten locally from well stocked pharmacies in small quantities for little money.

Engineer / Rudi
Can all of these steps be done with (E100) film - replace process (C41) and use process (E6)?

 

[peoplemerge]

I would like to know if that goes for E6, too!

 

[mohmad khatab]

I would like to know if that goes for E6, too!

I directed this question to Engineer Rudi, but he said that the answer is available to Mr. David Lyga

 

[Rudeofus]

E-6 is a bit of a problem:

1. I have seen E-6 film, where the antihalation layer is made not from dye, but from colloidal silver. Until you bleach and fix the film, the whole strip will look dark.
2. You have two development steps. The first one determines final density, while only the second one creates dye forming images. If you fix after first development, you will have no silver halide for the color development step. If you run the color development step with black&white developer, you have a homogeneous black silver image with no original image silver.

The only possible way to treat very old and fogged E-6 film is by cross processing it as color negative. If you do this, and if you can see an image after first development, you can amplify the image by rebleaching and redeveloping until contrast is where you want it.

 

[carerre]

Well, there are basically two options: either read and learn about the process, until you understand what black&white and C-41 processes do and try to apply this you your specific task, or pay through the nose for someone else to develop your film. Given the size of your film stash, the first path seems more promising, and the folks here on APUG will happily guide you through the process.

You can get a very basic idea of what happens in C-41 film during color development here. The important points are:

1. C-41 film is a bit like regular black&white film, i.e. you can develop it with any regular black&white film developer
2. When C-41 film is developed in C-41 color developer, regular black&white development takes place. Each developer molecule, which just developed silver, will then react with special compounds called 'color couplers'. These 'color couplers' are special molecules, they are embedded in the emulsion and will form a dye molecule when they react with oxidized color developer. That's why you get colorful images.
3. It's important to understand, that in C-41 process an image forms only in those regions where silver gets developed

That last point is crucial to the procedure I suggested: you could develop film with regular black&white developer, then fix away undeveloped silver halide and thereby get a weak but stable silver image. If you convert this silver image back into silver halide (and this is called 'bleaching'), you can then redevelop that silver halide in C-41 color developer!

Now why would I recommend Rodinal 1:100 stand development for this? There is not that much established knowledge about how to optimally process 'found rolls'. Film makers earn their money not from old stuff stashed away in some attic, but from fresh product, that's where their research efforts went into. People tried all kinds of stuff with these rare finds, and their experience suggests that Rodinal 1:100 will sort of develop any kind of film in any condition. You can't really experiment much with 'found rolls': if their pics were easily replaceable, then you'd just throw them away and start from scratch. You do it, because you want to see what's left on these rolls, there's little room for risky experiments.


The colors will be 'flunky' no matter what you do. The correct time to develop these film rolls for good results was about 20 years ago. The only thing we don't know yet is whether there is any image left on these rolls. The procedure I suggested will give you this info as cheaply as it gets:

1. stand develop film in Rodinal 1:100 (search APUG for instructions)
2. stop bath
3. fix film
4. wash film
5. Take film out of film tank and inspect. If there is no visible image, then film rolls of that brand/speed are likely lost. Put them back in your priority so you don't waste time on a futile effort

If a film strips looks ok, then do the following:

1. mix a bleach from 5 g/l Potassium Hexacyanoferrate III and 10 g/l Potassium Bromide.
2. mix a clearing bath from 10 g/l Sodium Sulfite.
3. prepare a complete set of C-41 processing bathes, bring up to temperature.
4. put the black&white developed film back onto a film spindle and into a film tank.
5. bleach the film for 5-10 minutes
6. wash the film for 3-5 minutes
7. put film in clearing bath for about 1 minute
8. wash again for 3-5 minutes, ideally with 38°C wash water to bring the film tank up to temperature for C-41 process
9. then run through regular C-41 process

All the raw chemicals I suggested in points 1 and 2 are no more toxic or otherwise hazardous than the C-41 process bathes, and they can be gotten locally from well stocked pharmacies in small quantities for little money.

Hi, a newbie here. After 1st part of the step 5 when the film is developed in b/w and washed and ready for inspection. Should the inspection be done in safe light or room light?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hi, a newbie here. After 1st part of the step 5 when the film is developed in b/w and washed and ready for inspection. Should the inspection be done in safe light or room light?

Welcome

 

[Sirius Glass]

XTOL is inexpensive and cost effective. Using it as replenished XTOL is even more cost effective.

 

[carerre]

XTOL is inexpensive and cost effective. Using it as replenished XTOL is even more cost effective.
View attachment 350992

this is a very good chart. thankU.

 

[MattKing]

Sadly, X-Tol may, or may not be, out of production, along with all other Kodak branded photo-chemicals. Otherwise, I recommend it.
A number of competitors are out there.

 

[Don_ih]

Should the inspection be done in safe light or room light?

Room light. The film is no longer sensitized.
(since no one else was interested in answering your actual question.)

 

[Rudeofus]

Room light. The film is no longer sensitized.
(since no one else was interested in answering your actual question.)

Confirmed.

 

[koraks]

@Eugen Mezei the original question was asked back in 2017. I think OP has figured out what to do (or not to do) in the meantime.

 

[koraks]

Now if we are at it, I am curios what the OP decided to do with those films.

Last seen in 2018. Give it another 5 years.

 

[pentaxuser]

Sadly, X-Tol may, or may not be, out of production, along with all other Kodak branded photo-chemicals. Otherwise, I recommend it.
A number of competitors are out there.

Matt, is the last sentence "faint praise" or is that just my interpretation?

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Matt, is the last sentence "faint praise" or is that just my interpretation?

pentaxuser

No - I just don't have direct knowledge, so am reluctant to point anyone to any product in particular.
I still have a few packages of X-Tol, so don't need to do the research yet.

 

[carerre]

Depends what color film. The 110 ones are C41 (or Kodachrome), as far I know 110 is new enough that it was not made for older processes. The format itself should be no problem, most minilabs and big labs can process it.
For the 135 rolls you have to see what process they need. Being only 20 years old, I think they are C41.

One thing I do not understand. You have those memories. They are unique, so why the pennycounting?
Try drugstores. None remained that offers film processing? In Germany it is around 2 Euros/roll. (DM, Rossmann, Müller, Saturn, etc.) Depending how the films were stored, you will get more or less color shift, but still it is color and not BW. To a degree you can correct for the color shift, especially if you will scan. Take the normal development, no compensation needed, would just add to the cost.

i think u missed the OP direction. Old films has fog and standard c41 process will likely produce a dense negative. going the route of first b/w with possibility of added Benzotriazole and then in c41. no regular lab will do this kind of custom work for u. I inherited some old undeveloped films and shoots primary expired films and i know what is the problem. u will be lucky if it is just a color shift. wait till u stumble on fog problem. nothing is cheap in north america.

film and darkroom players are loosely classified under counter culture folks and non-mainstreamers, the out-of-matrix people. insane and stubborn to some who just love to treading down the rabbit hole.