Best filter for graded paper negative

[kier]

Hi All -
Spurred on by some excellent info provided in the f295 forums by Joe VanCleave, I got some great captures in my 4x5 pinhole on preflashed Arista #2 graded rc paper. I really like the results, but would like to have the option for something other than a white sky. I know I can't use a red filter like I would with film. How about yellow or green? Does anyone have examples of each? I'd like a little guidance before I drop $30 on a new filter (I don't have any that will work for my 4x5 currently).

thanks!

 

[Oldwino]

I use a yellow filter when I shoot paper negs. It helps to block out some of the blue light, and I almost get some detail in the skies. I say "almost" as I am using multi-grade paper, not pre-flashed, which I rate at 3 including the filter factor. So my exposures are long, and skies tend to become a streak of moving clouds. But it least there is some texture there - it's not all just white. I need to try pre-flashing, as that would gain me about a stop.

I really like the look of paper negs. They have a certain quality that you just can't get from film. Though I image with enough time you could "replicate" the look in photoshop...

 

[removed account4]

i do not believe you can filter graded paper
you might consider doing a few tests ( using enlarger filters if you have them )
and VC paper ... AND you might also consider figuring out the exposure for the sky
to have details and using that information to burn in your paper negative as you expose it ...

have fun!

john

ps. if you figure out what color filter ( enlarger filter ) you need
you might look for lighting gels of a similar color, much cheaper than glass filters ..

 

[kier]

Thanks guys - to be clear, I'm not talking about contrast filtering as in changing the grade of the paper. I know that no matter what I do, it'll be grade 2 in contrast. Rather, I'm referring to a "minus blue" effect, as Oldwino is referring to with the yellow filter. Since graded paper is blue sensitive only, I expect that a yellow or green filter will have a stop-down effect on the sky (and anything else blue) while having a stop-up effect on things like grass and trees.

Anyone got samples to compare a graded paper shot with a yellow or green filter? I think I do have to go with glass, cause I'm doing pinholes, and so cleanliness is an absolute must - something I don't think I can easily maintain on a staticky gel

 

[removed account4]

sorry for my misunderstanding
whenyou have examples of what you did,
please post them.
i've been shooting paper for a long time and never heard
of using filters as you are suggesting ..

looking forward to your posts !
john

 

[kier]

sorry for my misunderstanding
whenyou have examples of what you did,
please post them.
i've been shooting paper for a long time and never heard
of using filters as you are suggesting ..

looking forward to your posts !
john

No worries at all - it's not always clear in the written word. I hadn't heard of it either! And then I started doing some searches on Google. There's lots of examples on VC paper, but not on graded paper.

 

[removed account4]

maybe it is done on vcpaper because it works with contrast filtration while graded paper is ... fixed.

either way sounds interesting !

btw i use lighting gels to make tri chrome ( b/w separation negatives re-assembled into color photographs )
works great ( at least for my purposes ) a few buck vs 100$ ...

john

 

[Photo Engineer]

Graded paper is sensitive to blue light. If it is used in-camera, use of a filter does little or nothing for the images.

Only VC paper is sensitive to different wavelengths (Green and Blue) and thus a tiny change can be had at the sacrifice of contrast variations between colors.

I would give up this idea.

PE

 

[kier]

Graded paper is sensitive to blue light. If it is used in-camera, use of a filter does little or nothing for the images.

Only VC paper is sensitive to different wavelengths (Green and Blue) and thus a tiny change can be had at the sacrifice of contrast variations between colors.

I would give up this idea.

PE

so there would be no minus-blue effect? effectively stopping down the sky? My only option is to switch to VC paper?

 

[Photo Engineer]

There is no minus blue effect on graded papers. VC papers respond to minus blue and minus green, but vary in contrast.

PE

 

[kier]

Is that because graded papers are blue-only, so any minus-blue would be uniform? Trying to think through the physics of this...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Graded papers are blue only.

VC papers are blue and green with 2 different emulsions.

PE

 

[Maris]

I've shot outdoor scenes on graded paper in camera with a grad red filter on the lens. This delivers a much darker sky tone but the result looks artificial and I still don't get good cloud rendition. A grad yellow filter, if I had one, would be what I'd try next.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ahhh, all emulsions have some UV sensitivity. The mfgrs. try to filter it out, but some leaks through, even the glass of the lens is coated against UV.

But, if there is leakage there may be some filter effect on UV by the filter. Maybe, not sure.

But, there is no red or green sensitivity in papers except VC papers.

PE

 

[Joe VanCleave]

I've had two occasions when I found it possible to render some sky detail using paper negatives, both involving grade 2 paper.

The first was an experiment at shooting white fluffy clouds against blue sky, using a pinhole camera. I pointed the camera skyward, then severely under-exposed the image, like 10 seconds instead of my normal 30-40 seconds in bright daylight. I got nice contrast between sky and clouds. However, if a person recreated this experiment using for a subject a standard landscape scene that includes both sky and land, the land will be essentially in silhouette, being dramatically under-exposed; but it might make for an interesting image, in special cases, especially if the horizon line has an interesting shape.

The second occasion was while employing an ultra-wide angle pinhole box camera under partially cloud-filtered daylight. The natural light falloff that happens with ultra-wide pinhole cameras naturally reduces the exposure in the corners and edges (with the sky being at the top edge of the image), while the reduced contrast of the partially filtered sky also helped to retain some detail that might otherwise be missing.

I've generally accepted the limitations of paper negatives and landscape images, noting too that in many 19th century photographs of the American west the skies had those similar blown-out-white appearance; I now embrace that "19th century" look.

~Joe

 

[blindpig]

I agree Joe the white sky is reminiscent of the wet plate look with the exception of a sort of"creamy"transition in the tonal scale,which is really what has enticed me to shoot paper negatives.

 

[removed account4]

blindpig

i'm with you and joe vc.
there is something about a paper negative rendering that
is timeless. and i think the blank sky might have something to do with it.

( wishing he had a very large paper negative enlarger )
john

 

[vickersdc]

As I was looking up 'stuff' about paper negatives, I came across this only six years too late... but this might be useful for someone in another six years time... Contrast control for Ilford VC papers

 

[c t b]

Thats nice!

 

[ridax]

Graded papers are blue only.
<...> there is no red or green sensitivity in papers except VC papers.

PE

Well I'm not an engineer. I'm a mere practical photographer. But as such, I have enjoyed printing my negs onto common silver bromide graded papers with a dark yellow sharp-cut filter (similar to Wratten 9) on my enlarger lens for years (the filter cuts the lens chromatic aberration off, providing for better sharpness). Sorry but blue only is valid in case of classical silver cloride papers only. Bromide and iodide papers are more green-sensitive. And in the vast majority of current high-tech papers, quite a bit of optical sensitizers are employed. So my dark yellow filter even does not make my printing exposures too long.

 

[ridax]

I really like the results, but would like to have the option for something other than a white sky.

If you are satisfied with everything but the sky, just use a polarizer. Exactly the same way you do with your color film and digital.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you are satisfied with everything but the sky, just use a polarizer. Exactly the same way you do with your color film and digital.

That is sensitive to the angle of the sun at the time of the photograph, so sometimes it will make little or no difference.

 

[ridax]

That is sensitive to the angle of the sun at the time of the photograph, so sometimes it will make little or no difference.

Certainly. And with a polirizer on a really wide angle lens, one usually gets the sky much darker on one side of the frame than on the other. But in a lot of situations, this method is still the best one for most of the graded papers. And it is THE ONLY ONE method for all the really-blue-only sensitive materials.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Certainly. And with a polirizer on a really wide angle lens, one usually gets the sky much darker on one side of the frame than on the other. But in a lot of situations, this method is still the best one for most of the graded papers. And it is THE ONLY ONE method for all the really-blue-only sensitive materials.

A very wide angle lens like a 21mm lens will get widely variations in sky darkness across the photograph.

 

[ridax]

A very wide angle lens like a 21mm lens will get widely variations in sky darkness across the photograph.

Isn't it exactly the same statement, just in the other words?
Or do I miss anything?