Best color and B/W paper options?

Of all the currently available color RA4 paper stocks, which do you prefer most, and why? My experience has so far been limited to the only option now sold in cut sheets format. However, I've made accommodations to store and cut a full commercial roll of RA4 paper, and I'm trying to decide which roll to purchase. A number of options are available from Fuji, however, it's unclear which would be best for optical printing. Fuji describes some papers as optimized for laser exposure, but still optically compatible. Obviously crystal archive type ii is printable, but I've read vague rumors about this stock being inferior to their other options. Apparently, Ilford is the company that cuts rolls of type ii into sheets and repackages them for resale. Why do they only do this with type ii?

Kodak Endura appears to have the best reputation, but reportedly hasn't been made in a while since the company that purchased (from Kodak) the rights to produce this and other Kodak papers developed "financial problems". Can anyone shed some more light on this, and share any information about when Kodak papers will again be made available for consumer purchase?

It would also be great to hear your thoughts on B/W paper stocks. Many vendors still available in this market, with some stocks being super pricey. Experience here is also limited to Ilford multigrade, both RC and FB. My favorite B/W film stock is Ilford ortho+. What paper might be best for printing this film?

It would be most helpful to learn about your first-hand personal experiences with any currently available alternative color and B/W paper options. Thank you very much again.

Konalog said:

Of all the currently available color RA4 paper stocks, which do you prefer most, and why? My experience has so far been limited to the only option now sold in cut sheets format. However, I've made accommodations to store and cut a full commercial roll of RA4 paper, and I'm trying to decide which roll to purchase. A number of options are available from Fuji, however, it's unclear which would be best for optical printing. Fuji describes some papers as optimized for laser exposure, but still optically compatible. Obviously crystal archive type ii is printable, but I've read vague rumors about this stock being inferior to their other options. Apparently, Ilford is the company that cuts rolls of type ii into sheets and repackages them for resale. Why do they only do this with type ii?

Kodak Endura appears to have the best reputation, but reportedly hasn't been made in a while since the company that purchased (from Kodak) the rights to produce this and other Kodak papers developed "financial problems". Can anyone shed some more light on this, and share any information about when Kodak papers will again be made available for consumer purchase?

It would also be great to hear your thoughts on B/W paper stocks. Many vendors still available in this market, with some stocks being super pricey. Experience here is also limited to Ilford multigrade, both RC and FB. My favorite B/W film stock is Ilford ortho+. What paper might be best for printing this film?

It would be most helpful to learn about your first-hand personal experiences with any currently available alternative color and B/W paper options. Thank you very much again.

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Kodak branded color paper is not available except for old stock. The division was sold to Sino Promise of China. Covid and financial issues have really changed the landscape for color paper. Fuji is what's available. Crystal Archive cut sheets and rolls are available, most of the time. Fuji is excellent paper.
Black and White, Ilford and Foma. Both are excellent.

mshchem said:

Kodak branded color paper is not available except for old stock. The division was sold to Sino Promise of China. Covid and financial issues have really changed the landscape for color paper. Fuji is what's available. Crystal Archive cut sheets and rolls are available, most of the time. Fuji is excellent paper.
Black and White, Ilford and Foma. Both are excellent.

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Out of two boxes of Foma RC, I've seen two white bubbles in the emulsion about 1x2 mm each. An Ilford video says they have a "de-bubbler" to remove bubbles in their liquid emulsion, and I speculate that Foma's de-bubbler isn't quite good enough. I've never seen a flaw in Ilford's RC paper. BTW, Foma RC attains a higher contrast than Ilford RC, something to keep in mind should the need arrive.

Konalog said:

Obviously crystal archive type ii is printable, but I've read vague rumors about this stock being inferior to their other options.

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Well, I suppose I'm one of the people rumoring this. In my hands this paper doesn't produce the same solid blacks that the higher-end Fuji papers do, and it's also the thinnest/most flimsy paper base in RA4 country. YMMV though; some find it a fine paper. It does have a moderate color saturation going for it, which is nice if you want something more muted and subtle than other papers.

I do most of my printing on Crystal Archive Supreme HD Digital - don't be fooled by the 'digital' bit. It enlarges just fine. I don't think any of the RA4 papers won't work under an enlarger, honestly. The advantages of this paper are mostly its good availability here in Europe combined with moderately high saturation and lack of any mottling in large areas of solid, dark hues that the lowest-end paper is more prone to.

Konalog said:

Kodak Endura appears to have the best reputation, but reportedly hasn't been made in a while since the company that purchased (from Kodak) the rights to produce this and other Kodak papers developed "financial problems". Can anyone shed some more light on this, and share any information about when Kodak papers will again be made available for consumer purchase?

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In short - no, I can't shed light onto this, because no information is being released. I once contacted Kodak about this and (obviously) never received a response at all. Going by the information out there, it's a mixed bag. Availability of Endura in online stores seems to be limited to a handful of rolls that may have been sitting there for years. But on the other hand, we have at least one user on here (you'd have to search) who claims to be printing at the moment on freshly produced Endura. I also see Endura listed as an option by online print services and this does appear to be actual RA4 paper (not some form of inkjet stock). What is not clear to me is if this base is actually available once you order it, and if it is, if it's freshly produced rather than old stock.

If Premier Endura is the best paper is of course debatable. I personally find Endura technically a superb paper as it's coated on a fairly heavy base and is the least prone to mottling of the papers I've used; it simply produces the highest dmax, which is clear if you hold it up to the light side by side with other papers (not that transmissive dmax is otherwise particularly meaningful of course). It also has very high saturation and that's something you either love or hate - or perhaps selectively so depending on the image.

The Fuji alternative for Endura would be Maxima, which has similar attributes but a subtly different color rendering. I personally haven't used it yet, partly because of challenges in obtaining it and mostly because the smallest roll is 50" width if memory serves, and I find that a hassle to handle.

My favourite standard paper among all is Fuji Crystal Archive DP II that it is branded as Super Type CN in the US. Higher saturation than Crystal Archive Supreme and I have the impression that it gives also deeper blacks.

halfaman said:

Fuji Crystal Archive DP II

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That's one I'd also like to try, but yet have to!

halfaman said:

Higher saturation than Crystal Archive Supreme

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That's interesting. Btw, there are two Supremes: Supreme and Supreme HD. I never noticed much (any) difference between them.

koraks said:

That's one I'd also like to try, but yet have to!

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I suppose you know this site. It is where I get my "stuff" from. Some residual curvature from roll, sheet length accuracy and squareness is so-so, but good enough overall.

Yes, I know them, but didn't know they also cut DPII to sheets these days.
I prefer rolls myself, especially after a bad experience with that particular seller and Endura that was all fogged (their Crystal Archive was fine).

koraks said:

Yes, I know them, but didn't know they also cut DPII to sheets these days.
I prefer rolls myself, especially after a bad experience with that particular seller and Endura that was all fogged (their Crystal Archive was fine).

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I was tempted to trim myself but for witdhs bellow 40 cm the minimum Fuji quantity to buy is two rolls of 108 meters that it is too much for me.

koraks said:

The Fuji alternative for Endura would be Maxima, which has similar attributes but a subtly different color rendering. I personally haven't used it yet, partly because of challenges in obtaining it and mostly because the smallest roll is 50" width if memory serves, and I find that a hassle to handle.

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The smallest Fuji Maxima roll is 16" wide, 84m long. Packaged as single roll.

halfaman said:

I was tempted to trim myself but for witdhs bellow 40 cm the minimum Fuji quantity to buy is two rolls of 108 meters that it is too much for me.

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Yeah, I see what you mean. Although given what Nordfoto charges for a box of cut sheet I wouldn't be surprised if it's still economical to cut from rolls if you end up having to give away or discarding much of the paper. Generally I manage to sell or donate one of the rolls from a box. Or I just use it up...

brbo said:

The smallest Fuji Maxima roll is 16" wide, 84m long. Packaged as single roll.

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That's hopeful; 16" is about the limit of what I'd be willing to handle. Although I now prefer 20cm / 12" rolls as I use an RCP20 these days.

halfaman said:

I suppose you know this site. It is where I get my "stuff" from. Some residual curvature from roll, sheet length accuracy and squareness is so-so, but good enough overall.

Farbnegativpapier

Farbnegativpapier

www.nordfoto.de

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Thank you for sharing this link! But I'm not sure if the DP II sold on this site is the same thing as the "type II" available in the US. Do you know?

Konalog said:

Thank you for sharing this link! But I'm not sure if the DP II sold on this site is the same thing as the "type II" available in the US. Do you know?

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Not the same. European DPII is American Super Type CN or C (Fuji seems to use both designations indistinctly) as metioned before.

I think US Type II is EU Crystal Archive Supreme, standard Crystal Archive with a thicker base.

halfaman said:

US Type II is EU Crystal Archive Supreme, standard Crystal Archive with a thicker base

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Supreme is not the same as standard Crystal Archive. I think US type II is Crystal Archive II. Plain Crystal Archive hasn't been manufactured for years; it was superceded by II a decade or so ago. Maybe longer.
Fuji's nomenclature is ridiculously confusing.

I remember the good days, not that long ago when we could buy cut sheets of Kodak color paper. My friend who had a great shop, Photo Pro, in Cedar Rapids Iowa, offered prints on every sort of Kodak color paper. He closed in summer of 2020.

I would sure like to know if SinoPromise is making paper.

Sinopromise was only ever converting and packaging paper produced by carestream, on behalf of Kodak alaris. Whats changed is that they now own the rights to kodak branded photo paper themselves and have to provide the working capital to fund its production. Provided theyve agreed terms with carestream the same basic coat and convert arrangement would apply unless they find a new primary coating supplier.

its claimed that part of the problem is the working capital bit and carestream are requiring cash upfront rather than credit terms, and that plus all the logistic issues affecting shipping is affecting supply.

The situation for RA4 is not great since fujifilm also closed their greenford plant US recently so i believe only tillburg, netherlands is now coating ra4 paper.
list of fuji papers here

Arcadia4 said:

so i believe only tillburg, netherlands is now coating ra4 paper

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They don't coat any in Japan?

Anyway, the Dutch plant is holding up fine so far and Fuji certainly doesn't seem to have any plans to pull out at this point.

There is a big selection of Fuji Crystal Archive products to choose from, although at the moment there's some supply issues due to the pandemic, as well as an elevated demand situation due to the absence of Kodak papers. I haven't personally been able to acquire any Maxima here to test. But this past year, and a number of times before, have been printing on Fujiflex Supergloss, which is not a paper at all, but coated on big polyester rolls. It's in a league of its own and made in Japan. Pricey.