Best 4x5 camera for starting out

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Good Morning Y'all,

I am looking in to expanding a tad further into large format. Already, I've started with 9x12cm but that format is a a bit difficult to find readily in stock. What do you recommend is a good starter 4x5 camera, preferably one of that is budget friendly, if possible ? Bonus points if I am able to use a 9x12cm film back on the camera, since I already have the film holders for those. By budget friendly I mean ideally something under $500.

Best,
E

Paul Howell · Feb 3, 2023

Depends on which back you have for 9X12cm, but budget friendly model Speed or Crown Graphics with lock backs that will take the graphics backs. If you are looking for a true view camera then a Graphic View II, make sure it has the tripod attachment. If budget is not that much of a concern then you have many choices. So do intend to shoot in a studio or in the field?

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Paul Howell said:
Depends on which back you have for 9X12cm, but budget friendly model Speed or Crown Graphics with lock backs that will take the graphics backs. If you are looking for a true view camera then a Graphic View II, make sure it has the tripod attachment. If budget is not that much of a concern then you have many choices. So do intend to shoot in a studio or in the field?

The 9x12 back I have is a 1940s Ihagee duplex back, not exactly sure on the dimensions of the physical back
.
I intend, and prefer, to shoot in the field.

Thank you for letting me know about the Speed/Crown Graphics, I will look them up ! Are there any significant differences between the two?

abruzzi · Feb 3, 2023

it depends a lot on what, where, and how you shoot. The speed/crown graphics were press cameras and are limited on movements, but they can be shot like a huge rangefinder, handheld. The Graphic View is a monorail made by the same companye and has much more movements, but they are less portable, and definitely not handhold-able. If you're going to go monorail, I'd really look at a Sinar F. They are almost as cheap as Graphic views, but you're buying into one of the most extensive "system cameras" ever made. The Sinar system is petty amazing, and while it can outgrow you (in size) its almost impossible to outgrow it.

As prices get higher there are a lot of cameras that provide a lot of flexibility--close even to a monorail--but with size, weight, and packability advantages.

Steven Lee · Feb 3, 2023

Howl23 said:
By budget friendly I mean ideally something under $500.

Is this budget for a camera only or for the entire system? This actually was the first thing I had to learn: what a complete large format system consists of.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 3, 2023

The cheapest will be an older monorail like the Graphic View II mentioned above or a Calumet. Often you can find these for a couple hundred dollars. They are full-featured and fine performers (I still have and use my first 4x5, a Graphic View II).

If you don't want a monorail, but prefer a field camera you'll need to spend more, most likely. There are metal folding cameras from Wista and Toyo that are popular and (my preference) wooden folding field cameras from Tachihara, Wista, Horseman, etc., etc.

If you want a press camera (usually more limited movements, but serviceable too) look for used Speed or Crown Graphic cameras, or other similar brands. These come with a rangefinder for hand-held use as well, but need to have cams for the lenses being used and need periodic calibration.

Really, your first task should be to decide which type of 4x5 view camera you desire. Do you need a lightweight folder for field work or will you be using a monorail doing studio and indoor architectural work, etc.

Best,

Doremus

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Is this budget for a camera only or for the entire system? This actually was the first thing I had to learn: what a complete large format system consists of.

My initial thought was for a full system( (lens and a functioning camera+back) but I may not fully understand what that means based on what I've researched. If you are able to clarify that is greatly appreciated.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
The cheapest will be an older monorail like the Graphic View II mentioned above or a Calumet. Often you can find these for a couple hundred dollars. They are full-featured and fine performers (I still have and use my first 4x5, a Graphic View II).

If you don't want a monorail, but prefer a field camera you'll need to spend more, most likely. There are metal folding cameras from Wista and Toyo that are popular and (my preference) wooden folding field cameras from Tachihara, Wista, Horseman, etc., etc.

If you want a press camera (usually more limited movements, but serviceable too) look for used Speed or Crown Graphic cameras, or other similar brands. These come with a rangefinder for hand-held use as well, but need to have cams for the lenses being used and need periodic calibration.

Really, your first task should be to decide which type of 4x5 view camera you desire. Do you need a lightweight folder for field work or will you be using a monorail doing studio and indoor architectural work, etc.

Best,

Doremus

I prefer something lightweight for field work. I want to delve into environmental portraiture. The monorail cameras do seem to be cheaper and offer a lot versatility but I don't know if it'll be an easy thing to carry around. On top of this I don't necessarily have a proper studio space for a monorail camera.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

I would also like to add that the main reason I am interested in large format photography is due to contact printing. I found I quite enjoy the printing out process, at least from my experience in cyanotypes.

Donald Qualls · Feb 3, 2023

Paul Howell said:
budget friendly model Speed or Crown Graphics with lock backs that will take the graphics backs. If you are looking for a true view camera then a Graphic View II, make sure it has the tripod attachment.

I'll second this. Graflok back is preferred, but a Graphic (aka spring) back is acceptable for a starter (takes standard film holders and some accessories). An Anniversary Speed (spring back only) can be had for well under $200 with a lens and working shutter, plus a working focal plane shutter (it it's not accurate, cleaning and adjustment can bring it back). Same is true of a Graphic View II, and the original Graphic View is often a little less still (it's less desirable because it wasn't offered with Graflok back and has bottom pivot tilts rather than centered -- makes it a little more effort to set movements).

Don_ih · Feb 3, 2023

You can easily get a Sinar, Cambo, Calumet, or Toyo 4x5 camera for under 500 - and all of them will work well. It's important that everything lock in place very well with these cameras - you don't want anything shifting when you put the film holder in. A lens, however, is going to add a lot to the cost, unless you get lucky and find one with a lens in a working shutter.

While a Speed Graphic or similar press camera seems like a good choice for portability, you will miss out on the actual power of a view camera if you choose that.

Craig · Feb 3, 2023

I'll make a different suggestion: as you already have a 9x12cm camera, why not order a few boxes of film from Europe where that is a standard size and shoot the camera you have some more. That will give you a better idea of the cameras limitations and you can refine your "must have" list of features for the next camera.

Fotoimpex lists a number of 9x12 films, the Adox and especially Foma are reasonably inexpensive. By the time you've gone through a 50 sheet box you should have a better idea of what you want and what you don't need.

Films Sheet films - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

ADOX CHS 100 II (4x5) 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 INCH) / 25 Sheets, ADOX CMS 20 II 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 INCH) / 25 Sheets, BERGGER PANCRO 400 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 IN ...

www.fotoimpex.com

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Craig said:
I'll make a different suggestion: as you already have a 9x12cm camera, why not order a few boxes of film from Europe where that is a standard size and shoot the camera you have some more. That will give you a better idea of the cameras limitations and you can refine your "must have" list of features for the next camera.

Fotoimpex lists a number of 9x12 films, the Adox and especially Foma are reasonably inexpensive. By the time you've gone through a 50 sheet box you should have a better idea of what you want and what you don't need.

Films Sheet films - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

ADOX CHS 100 II (4x5) 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 INCH) / 25 Sheets, ADOX CMS 20 II 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 INCH) / 25 Sheets, BERGGER PANCRO 400 10,2x12,7 CM (4x5 IN ...

www.fotoimpex.com

The 9x12 camera I own is starting to show its age and will need to be serviced, granted from my understanding it should be rather simple thing to do for a tech, but my main issue with the camera is that it doesn't allow me to swap lenses. I must admit, however, the camera does technically work but I figure if I am gonna get it serviced I may be able to simply buy a 4x5 camera for the same cost and start building the system bit by bit.

My ideal 9x12 camera would be the Zeiss Ikon Miroflex B, but that brings another issue of finding someone who can service that specific camera.

Alan9940 · Feb 3, 2023

The Intrepid is a lightweight camera that can be bought brand new for well under $500. Gfaflock accessories can be used, but sorry I don't know anything about the 9x12 back mentioned above.

Steven Lee · Feb 3, 2023

Howl23 said:
My initial thought was for a full system( (lens and a functioning camera+back) but I may not fully understand what that means based on what I've researched. If you are able to clarify that is greatly appreciated.

In my case the budget for the full system consisted of:

A camera body
Lens + board
Film holders
2500 series JOBO tank and a sheet film reel
Dark cloth
Focusing loupe
Film loading tent

I tried to use t-shirts instead of a purpose-built dark cloth but that was a nightmare, and my 10x film inspection loupe was a horrible fit for LF focusing. Also, I severely underestimated the pain of loading film in my small bag, so I had to spend extra on a tent. On top, I had to more then triple the number of film holders from 3 to 10 fairly quickly.

I am also struggling with my existing backpack which doesn't accommodate my LF gear easily, so that's another expense for the near future.

Craig · Feb 3, 2023

Steven Lee said:
I tried to use t-shirts instead of a purpose-built dark cloth but that was a nightmare,

I went to the fabric store and bought a remnant of denim for very little. It's opaque enough to work, and heavy enough to not blow away. Makes a great dark cloth.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Steven Lee said:
In my case the budget for the full system consisted of:

A camera body

Lens + board

Film holders

2500 series JOBO tank and a sheet film reel

Dark cloth

Focusing loupe

Film loading tent

I tried to use t-shirts instead of a purpose-built dark cloth but that was a nightmare, and my 10x film inspection loupe was a horrible fit for LF focusing. Also, I severely underestimated the pain of loading film in my small bag, so I had to spend extra on a tent. On top, I had to more then triple the number of film holders from 3 to 10 fairly quickly.

I am also struggling with my existing backpack which doesn't accommodate my LF gear easily, so that's another expense for the near future.

Interesting list, I have some items, or at least similar items, already. I primarily would need the loupe, camera body+holders, and lens+board.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Alan9940 said:
The Intrepid is a lightweight camera that can be bought brand new for well under $500. Gfaflock accessories can be used, but sorry I don't know anything about the 9x12 back mentioned above.

I have seen the intrepid pop up a few times, doesn't seem to bad, and looks like some people on here sold a few not long ago and i missed it !

Donald Qualls · Feb 3, 2023

Freestyle has either Fomapan or their rebranded .EDU Ultra, 100 speed, in 9x12 -- and no international shipping. B&H does as well, and you'll get free shipping (for any order over $50). Only one emulsion -- but ISO 100 B&W is the place to start in large format anyway, and Fomapan 100 is a good conventional film (I've used a lot of it over the past twenty years, from 35 mm to 4x5).

That said, there are many more emulsion choices in 4x5, and IMO you'd be ahead to watch eBay (and KEH, of course) for a wood 4x5 field camera, since that's pretty much what you're after. Another option to consider is a new Intrepid. It'll be a little heavier than a true field camera, and doesn't fold as small, but it's new -- for 1/4 the price of a new field camera from one of the big names.

campy51 · Feb 3, 2023

I have a Crown Graphic Special with top mounted rangefinder that's accurate and like using it as point and shoot. I think I paid $250 in excellent condition.

xya · Feb 3, 2023

Another suggestion: an old 9x12 Linhof Standard or even a 9x12 Technika. Both are very small and light and you can turn the back on both. I got my Standard with 3 usable lenses for well under 500€ https://www.oddcameras.com/linhof_standard.htm a couple of holders included. And yes, 9x12 film supply isn't a problem in Europe.

Paul Howell · Feb 3, 2023

The Speed Graphic has a focal plane shutter, if still in working order and without light leaks can be useful as barrel lens (lens without shutters) can be used. The Crown came without the focal plane shutter and is lighter. Early modes have the rangefinder mounted on the side, later models on the top. The rangefinders are matched to a given lens. I have a 1952 Montgomery Wards Photography catalog which offers the Speed and Crown from lens ranging from 127 to 210mm. Most common are 127 and 135 which are a bit wide for 4X5, when used a press camera the thinking was to go wide and crop in as needed for the final image for printing. The last Speed did not have have focal plan shutter, the leaf shutter on the lens was really fast for lead shutter some like 1/1000 or 1/12000 of a second. All metal body. When Singer sold off it's photo line Toyo bought the Speed line and rebranded it. I have both a Speed and a Crown, along with a Brand Newview view camera, I use the Crown more than the others, light easy to carry in the field, can she shot hand held or on a monopod with the rangefinder. I generally do not use a lot of movement.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

xya said:
Another suggestion: an old 9x12 Linhof Standard or even a 9x12 Technika. Both are very small and light and you can turn the back on both. I got my Standard with 3 usable lenses for well under 500€ https://www.oddcameras.com/linhof_standard.htm a couple of holders included. And yes, 9x12 film supply isn't a problem in Europe.

They look like excellent cameras but I believe the days of them being going for 500 might be a tad over, I did a quick ebay check and a lot were well over my budget. Still a great camera I haven't heard of thank you for letting me know.

Howl23 · Feb 3, 2023

Paul Howell said:
The Speed Graphic has a focal plane shutter, if still in working order and without light leaks can be useful as barrel lens (lens without shutters) can be used. The Crown came without the focal plane shutter and is lighter. Early modes have the rangefinder mounted on the side, later models on the top. The rangefinders are matched to a given lens. I have a 1952 Montgomery Wards Photography catalog which offers the Speed and Crown from lens ranging from 127 to 210mm. Most common are 127 and 135 which are a bit wide for 4X5, when used a press camera the thinking was to go wide and crop in as needed for the final image for printing. The last Speed did not have have focal plan shutter, the leaf shutter on the lens was really fast for lead shutter some like 1/1000 or 1/12000 of a second. All metal body. When Singer sold off it's photo line Toyo bought the Speed line and rebranded it. I have both a Speed and a Crown, along with a Brand Newview view camera, I use the Crown more than the others, light easy to carry in the field, can she shot hand held or on a monopod with the rangefinder. I generally do not use a lot of movement.

Thank you for the information, so far it seems the graphic line of cameras may be the best option, as they're the ones that fit my budget. I will just need to narrow down to which specific model best fits my needs. Although I will most likely go with the cheaper option.

Sirius Glass · Feb 3, 2023

I strongly suggest that you start with a 4"x5" Pacemaker Speed Graphic with a top mounted viewfinder which allows you to use it hand held, it is a press camera, and to mount it on a tripod with limited movements. I have found the limited movements more than enough. It and any lenses can be resold to get your money back or more. Shooting hand held will allow you the freedom to quickly take photographs and it much more convenient and fun. Also get the Grafmatic 45 back so that you can take six photographs without reloading. Any lenses that you buy will also work on any view camera or 4"x5" camera.

Best 4x5 camera for starting out

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