Beside the Nikon F6, what are the other 35mm camera still on production?

[RobC]

It will be some time before cameras are like Ming vases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSFy6yebMJ4

 

[Pioneer]

The new cameras cannot compete against the used cameras.

Bessa R2,R3,R4 rangefinders for about $800. Used Leica film cameras are close to the same price.

Fuji/Bessa 667 folding cameras were $2299. No more. Couldn't compete with used medium format cameras.

Leica...well, Leica is different.

And maybe, just maybe, the tough market that has been affecting the digital camera sales is also causing problems for new film cameras?

 

[Xmas]

I'm not familiar with that grading system. Is that similar to LNIB?

No sorry it is a Fed I made about '36 its top plate surround to the speed dial is similar in shape.

Later cameras are more close to Leica II the Soviets copied the Leica II. They are usable cameras.

 

[Dr Croubie]

And maybe, just maybe, the tough market that has been affecting the digital camera sales is also causing problems for new film cameras?

Interesting thoughts, from what I understand of the digital situation after all the big names got to 18-25 mega pickles the general public realised that "that really is enough" and they haven't been buying and upgrading to new bodies every few years (compared to what happened when they went quickly from 2 to 8 to 12 to 20 megapickles, everyone upgraded because the quality difference was actually noticeable).

So in a way, digital bodies are now in a sort of an 'upgrade pause', where you don't get any (noticeably) better images from the newer bodies.
Just like film cameras have dealt with for 5-8 decades, all their major upgrades could be put down to TTL metering, motor drives, and AF. 3 major new techs (and even motor drives aren't that important). Nothing much happened to film bodies since the AF craze of the 80s, since then it was all just incremental upgrading.
Now digital is catching up to this exact same scenario, just incremental feature upgrades like better screens, better AF, better metering and whatnot, but the prints/images aren't any that much better than you could get 5 years ago (except the 0.01% who print billboards or like to think they can, or the 80% who pixel-peep).
So the only way for camera companies to survive these days is lenses, pretty much what film camera companies were doing for decades. Expanding into new markets is the only other way to keep selling bodies. Film cameras did that a lot with the rise of the middle classes in the last half of the 20th century. But now all the new markets have cameraphones and don't want big heavy bodies, so 'new markets' are as promising as they used to be.

Not sure where I was going with this. But yes, there's a general slowdown in sales of digital bodies, and the increases in tech are pretty much turning them into the proverbial "light-tight box with a lens attached" where a better body does not mean better pictures (that we around here have known for centuries). So they're having to adjust to the same world as film cameras have occupied for decades.

Any company wanting to produce film camera bodies would now have to compete with not only the millions of 2nd hand bodies already out there, but also the digital bodies too, and the only way they could hope to succeed would be marketing either a) films 'differences' to digital, b) some sort of 'trendiness' factor (holgas and lomos), or c) the perceived quality, workmanship, and status that comes from buying new over 2nd hand (and leica fill that niche nicely with their MP and M7).
I'm not sure where anyone else (new or old productions) would fit into that. CV filled the '100% viewfinder' niche with the R3 and the empty '21mm viewfinder' niche with the R4.
The L, R, R2, and even ZM were only ever filling the 'I want to buy new and not a used M3' and 'I must have TTL metering' niches so they were never going to last.

 

[Pioneer]

I find it intriguing that one of the largest selection of new film cameras available today seem to be on the large format front. This has been a tiny market for many, many years but it does seem to be holding its own.

I wonder whether or not 35mm or 120 roll film will reach that same equilibrium where there is a small number of boutique manufacturers producing a few cameras a year? Maybe 3D manufacturing will enable this to occur.

One thing for sure, we live in a very interesting time where huge changes seem to be happening almost daily.

 

[Dr Croubie]

I find it intriguing that one of the largest selection of new film cameras available today seem to be on the large format front. This has been a tiny market for many, many years but it does seem to be holding its own.

I wonder whether or not 35mm or 120 roll film will reach that same equilibrium where there is a small number of boutique manufacturers producing a few cameras a year? Maybe 3D manufacturing will enable this to occur.

One thing for sure, we live in a very interesting time where huge changes seem to be happening almost daily.

I think LF certainly fits into my aforementioned "show the differenced / advantages over digital" category.
There will always be arguments and tests about whether the latest 35mm digital body with a Tilt-Shift lens (or even a digital MF back on an LF camera) will be better or worse quality than a photo from well enlarged or drum-scanned LF film.
But one thing that doesn't exist today is a digital LF back (besides some stupidly expensive scanning backs), and frankly, I doubt we'll ever see a single-shot back bigger than 645.
If you want to be 'different' from the small/medium format crowd and go towards LF, there's only one choice and that choice is film (by 'film' I'm including paper/plates etc).

Whilst there were also a lot of LF cameras made over the years, there certainly were never as many as 35mm/MF. And they were so much more expensive (new) too. And bellows get holes, wooden standards just get worn down, a lot of second-hand LF bodies need some work.
Nowadays a good LF can be had for a few hundred 2nd hand, I paid $300 for my Toyo 45G and $450 for my 8x10. But the supply just isn't as great as all combined 35mm models, so the 2nd-hand prices are still resonably high enough that a nimble/cheap manufacturer (like ShenHao et al) can come in for maybe twice the price of 2nd hand and offer brand-new cameras that don't need replacement bellows or lockdown nuts before being usable.
Also, the latest manufacturing tech/materials never really made it to many LF bodies, they're still being refined now with things like Carbon Fibre bodies (Toyo 45CF and others) appearing in the last 2 decades. Look at the injection-moulded cheap-as-chips Travelwide and the CNC-routed plywood whatsitsname. Manufacturing for LF bodies can still incorporate lots more new(ish) techs like those and still bring new prices down.

(and LF also fills the 'prestige' and 'I want to be different' categories, as anyone who's pulled out an ebony in a crowded place probably knows...)

 

[Theo Sulphate]

...
So in a way, digital bodies are now in a sort of an 'upgrade pause', where you don't get any (noticeably) better images from the newer bodies.
...

Nicely written and accurate, I believe. Thom Hogan believes the next thing that needs to happen is the adoption of features to improve workflow, e.g. camera wireless connectivity to PC's, tablets, the internet or somesuch. It is so much easier for phones and other devices to connect, and that's what young people are doing and want to do.

As for 35mm, I sense people starting to enjoy simpler cameras with just the basic controls; something that can be put in a pocket and taken anywhere.

 

[Photo-gear]

[...]
So in a way, digital bodies are now in a sort of an 'upgrade pause', where you don't get any (noticeably) better images from the newer bodies.
Just like film cameras have dealt with for 5-8 decades, all their major upgrades could be put down to TTL metering, motor drives, and AF. 3 major new techs (and even motor drives aren't that important). Nothing much happened to film bodies since the AF craze of the 80s, since then it was all just incremental upgrading.
[...]
So the only way for camera companies to survive these days is lenses, pretty much what film camera companies were doing for decades. Expanding into new markets is the only other way to keep selling bodies. Film cameras did that a lot with the rise of the middle classes in the last half of the 20th century. But now all the new markets have cameraphones and don't want big heavy bodies, so 'new markets' are as promising as they used to be.
[...]
Any company wanting to produce film camera bodies would now have to compete with not only the millions of 2nd hand bodies already out there, but also the digital bodies too, and the only way they could hope to succeed would be marketing either a) films 'differences' to digital, b) some sort of 'trendiness' factor (holgas and lomos), or c) the perceived quality, workmanship, and status that comes from buying new over 2nd hand (and leica fill that niche nicely with their MP and M7).
[...]

Real good summarization of the market. On the other hand, it is sad to consider photographers will mostly shoot with old cameras...

 

[Xmas]

Real good summarization of the market. On the other hand, it is sad to consider photographers will mostly shoot with old cameras...

Bowdlerising a Dilbert cartoon
Happy is an option... A Canon P was all I needed yesterday. It is less frequent I use a more modern camera like a Nikon F2. A FM2n is the youngest I have.

I do have modern Voightlander LTM lenses as well as Canon LTM lenses from 1960s.
Yesterday was all Canon and fast grainy Kentmere 400.

 

[ciniframe]

I'm about burned out with regular film cameras myself. But not so much that I'd go over to the digital camp. The problem is setting up and taking down a darkroom for the time it takes to get a print or two. I can only do 35mm anyway, with a little Durst F30 that was a freebie. Now I'm starting to enjoy large format more using photo paper as a negative. (Cannot afford LF film) With paper you can work under safelight and the needs for contact printing are minimal. The greatest advantage is that as long as I can get hobby plywood I can make my own cameras. I'm in the process of building an 8X10 sliding box now as the next logical step up from 4X5.

 

[Photo-gear]

I do still shoot with several cameras.
I was just wondering about the future.
Thx!

 

[Theo Sulphate]

...
On the other hand, it is sad to consider photographers will mostly shoot with old cameras...

On the positive side, there are so many old, interesting cameras that it's nice to see them being used and having a long life. Also, they are very distinctive. There aren't that many products people use in the modern world that are 50+ years old. As much as I like my D700 or X-Pro1, they are already considered obsolete by the digital photo community. In 20 years, I suspect most digital cameras which are new today will be part of a landfill.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

When thinking about old film cameras, here's another thing to think about: mechanical watches.

Given the excellent accuracy of even the cheapest quartz watch (a few dollars) plus the ability to add dozens of features through software, there's no technical reason anyone would choose a mechanical watch (*). That's why, in the U.S. at least, the mechanical watch almost disappeared in the 1980's. Now there is a resurgence of interest. Why? Because people value craftsmanship, especially individually assembled mechanisms with added complexity. It's not technical; it's emotional.

I have four very nice mechanical watches, including an Omega Speedmaster which is manual-wind only (many mechanical watches are automatic and use a motion-sensitive rotor). It has a nice sapphire back with which to view its Caliber 1863 movement. I would never buy a quartz watch today; they have no appeal.

(*) The most accurate mechanical watches are given a COSC certification. However, they are far less accurate than any quartz watch. A light-hearted, but informative, article about COSC can be found here:

http://people.timezone.com/library/wbore/wbore631733384647656250

 

[Rook]

In many Third World and developing countries, film is still the dominant medium for photography. It would be interesting to find out what cameras they are using. Surely they can't all be buying second-hand cameras! I suspect China is manufacturing film cameras specifically for sale in those regions.

 

[skorpiius]

Lots of interesting comments. A few things come to mind. One, although there are many more cameras out there than photographers, most of those are dumb kodak cameras, I think the supply of highly adjustable cameras is much smaller (and possibly with less longevity due to higher complexity and being used more). Second, it's interesting that lomo type cameras are some of the few being made new, but again they're dumb cameras which aren't necessarily much "smarter" than old kodak box cameras. Third, one of the most popular new cameras are actually the Fuji instax line, indicating there is still consumer demand for the physical print. Fourth, the fact that formerly top of the line slrs might have some cost but the lower tier ones tend to be a dime a dozen indicates to me we're a long ways from running out, and lastly one thing I love about old cameras is they are fine machines which can not only be collected, but still used and be as useful today as they were even 100 years ago.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[Paul Howell]

In many Third World and developing countries, film is still the dominant medium for photography. It would be interesting to find out what cameras they are using. Surely they can't all be buying second-hand cameras! I suspect China is manufacturing film cameras specifically for sale in those regions.

This is not the case, the developing world just skipped film, an inexpensive bridge type camera and inkjet is much cheaper than a film camera, chemistry, enlarger or minlab. Lucky has stopped making color film, China makes many digital camera. If still in production China may make the 35 K mount manual focus camera sold in the US under Vivitair and Promaster brand. Pentax sells a lot of D645 in both China and India to wedding photographers.

 

[Photo-gear]

This is not the case, the developing world just skipped film, an inexpensive bridge type camera and inkjet is much cheaper than a film camera, chemistry, enlarger or minlab. Lucky has stopped making color film, China makes many digital camera. If still in production China may make the 35 K mount manual focus camera sold in the US under Vivitair and Promaster brand. Pentax sells a lot of D645 in both China and India to wedding photographers.

I wrote to Sakar (who owns the Vivitar copyright) and they said that the Vivitar V3800 is still being made.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I used to consider the future of film as quite safe with the chemicals and films still available.

But lately I have started looking at this whole business thru the camera side itself.

Beside the F6, what are the 35mm camera still being made? I have found that Sakar (based in New Jersey) carries the Vivitar V3800 (K mount) as an "active" camera still being on production, at least according to an unclear answer from the company.

At this present time, films are shot by old cameras that aren't made anymore. We can still have accessories from the companies and by some admirable technicians still willing to fix 35mm camera as well as other sorts.

But there will be a time when photographers will have to shoot with "fresh and crispy" cameras, don't you think?

I have to hang on to my old Nikon gear, I guess

 

[Sirius Glass]

...

But there will be a time when photographers will have to shoot with "fresh and crispy" cameras, don't you think?

No.

 

[bo eder]

I agree. I don't think you need "new" 35mm SLRs, or rangefinders. There are enough of them floating around to keep people interested for decades. Although I applaud the resurgence in all things vintage: film shooting, listening to vinyl records, etc.,...35mm SLRs are still getting cheaper (maybe not anymore?). I found a mint Canon EOS-1V for $250. A EOS-1N in mint condition for $99. Bought them both.

The gentleman who spoke of new 4x5 and 8x10 cameras made sense. A huge piece of film (even a well-made 35mm piece of film) totally trounces anything digital. Start shooting 4x5 and really see what you're missing!

Funnier story, I took the 1V to Canon here in Southern CA to look at it and make sure it really is in mint condition, and when I walked in, most of the people there had to gather around because they had NEVER seen a Canon film camera come through the doors! At first they told me they wouldn't service it, but after they searched their computers, the EOS-1V is still on their list of cameras they will service! So if you want something that can be serviced by the manufacturer, get the 1V! They said they were still surprised it's on the list, because a lot of their DSLRs maybe see service for five years. The 1V has been on their list since 2000, and may stay there for some time since it's the last film camera they ever made. Amazing.

 

[Pioneer]

I agree. I don't think you need "new" 35mm SLRs, or rangefinders. There are enough of them floating around to keep people interested for decades. Although I applaud the resurgence in all things vintage: film shooting, listening to vinyl records, etc.,...35mm SLRs are still getting cheaper (maybe not anymore?). I found a mint Canon EOS-1V for $250. A EOS-1N in mint condition for $99. Bought them both.

The gentleman who spoke of new 4x5 and 8x10 cameras made sense. A huge piece of film (even a well-made 35mm piece of film) totally trounces anything digital. Start shooting 4x5 and really see what you're missing!

Funnier story, I took the 1V to Canon here in Southern CA to look at it and make sure it really is in mint condition, and when I walked in, most of the people there had to gather around because they had NEVER seen a Canon film camera come through the doors! At first they told me they wouldn't service it, but after they searched their computers, the EOS-1V is still on their list of cameras they will service! So if you want something that can be serviced by the manufacturer, get the 1V! They said they were still surprised it's on the list, because a lot of their DSLRs maybe see service for five years. The 1V has been on their list since 2000, and may stay there for some time since it's the last film camera they ever made. Amazing.

I think that large format is wonderful. But I also use and enjoy 35mm.

I completely disagree with you. I do want new 35mm film cameras. With the same type of warranty that you can get with a digital. Not only for myself but for others.

You enjoy working with used cameras and getting good deals on those cameras. I applaud you. But, because you enjoy that part of today's market you very off handedly tossed out those who would prefer to purchase a new camera.

I am involved with film for the long term and I would like to own my own new 35mm camera, not someone else s hand me downs. Fortunately Nikon and Leica still recognize that. I really wish more manufacturers did, maybe film itself would have more of a chance if people were given more of a choice.

 

[bo eder]

I agree and sympathize. But unless people stop buying digital and demand the big manufacturers make new SLRs, I'm not sure it can happen. It's sad, but that's how it is. So I guess you're buying an F6 soon?

 

[Pioneer]

Have the F6 now. It is a terrific camera. It would be nice to have more choices though.

I do agree that part of the issue is that film cameras are not big sellers and the majority of manufacturers are not interested in producing a product that will not be a big seller.

 

[Ektagraphic]

I wrote to Sakar (who owns the Vivitar copyright) and they said that the Vivitar V3800 is still being made.

Good to know. It is no longer listed at B&H...Their new 35mm camera page is practically down to the two Nikons, Leica's, and remaining Voigtlanders...sad!

 

[bo eder]

Good to know. It is no longer listed at B&H...Their new 35mm camera page is practically down to the two Nikons, Leica's, and remaining Voigtlanders...sad!

But on the plus side, those little Fuji Instamax cameras are selling, and I believe those folks over at Impossible are producing a full-sized Polaroid camera now, aren't they?

This means you can utilize those old Polaroid backs for your SLR's and get film for them!