Bergger Pancro 400 in Xtol, base fog?

[abruzzi]

I shot and developed my first roll of Bergger Pancro 400 on my Pentax 67 (120 film, obviously.) I also shot a roll of TMAX100 at the more or less the same time in the same camera. I developed them both this weekend, and was surprised that the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear. The Bergger was developed in Xtol 1+1 at 20C for 18 minutes, according to the Bergger data sheet. The Bergger is also very fresh--I think the expiration was 2022.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, I noticed this when I developed a fresh 120 roll last year in Pyrocat-HD. I exposed it in the morning, and developed it that evening. We are talking very heavy B+F. But, the resulting images were lovely.

 

[abruzzi]

thanks. I haven't looked at the images yet, just curious about the results.

 

[removedacct1]

t the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I wonder if the same with sheet film? That would make it a poor candidate for alt printing. I scanned in the 120 neg and made a lovely carbon transfer print.

 

[markbau]

Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

 

[abruzzi]

Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

That time is straight from the datasheet. Xtol 1+1 is 18 minutes, Rodinal 1:50 is 22 minutes, so it seems to be slow developing in everything. (HC-110/B is 9 minutes, but normally HC-110/B is close to 5 minutes for other films.) Don't know the cause though.

 

[markjwyatt]

I noticed it also in DDX (sent to Darkroom). I compare the Bergger B+F to Acros here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fuji-acros-and-bergger-pancro-400.162832/#post-2124400

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

 

[GLS]

Yes, I noticed this when I developed a fresh 120 roll last year in Pyrocat-HD

+1

 

[removedacct1]

I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

Agreed. It seems its actually a fairly flat 200 speed film that reaches optimal contrast when shot at 400 and processed for longer than usual times.

What I don't quite understand is that Bergger states that fixing times are "longer than normal" for this film, and yet I can see that the clearing time in fresh Ammonium thiosulphate fixer is about one minute (or less). Their own datasheet states:

" In rapid, non hardening fixer, it is recommended to use a dilution of 1+4 for 6 minutes."

I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

I use 6 minutes (1+4 dilution) as my standard fix time processing black & white film in a Jobo as I use T-Max and Delta films so I haven't really thought about this point. As regards Bergger, on a broader point I'm still unclear to what extent their products are worth paying attention to compared to the competition. Adox, ILFORD, and Kodak all make products for which clearer usage information is available.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

The developing times in Bergger's data sheet are for a contrast index of 0.7. Base fog probably doesn't come into it. Exposing more overcomes the fog. Developing less for a more "normal" contrast index would probably lower the base fog somewhat too.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I shot and developed my first roll of Bergger Pancro 400 on my Pentax 67 (120 film, obviously.) I also shot a roll of TMAX100 at the more or less the same time in the same camera. I developed them both this weekend, and was surprised that the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear. The Bergger was developed in Xtol 1+1 at 20C for 18 minutes, according to the Bergger data sheet. The Bergger is also very fresh--I think the expiration was 2022.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

that’s normal.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Agreed. It seems its actually a fairly flat 200 speed film that reaches optimal contrast when shot at 400 and processed for longer than usual times.

What I don't quite understand is that Bergger states that fixing times are "longer than normal" for this film, and yet I can see that the clearing time in fresh Ammonium thiosulphate fixer is about one minute (or less). Their own datasheet states:

" In rapid, non hardening fixer, it is recommended to use a dilution of 1+4 for 6 minutes."

I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

I would only expose it at 200 if developing it for zone contrast. If developing it for ISO contrast, it’s a lot closer to the 320 mark depending on developer used. I posted an H+D curve in another thread a few days ago for replenished xtol and pancro400.
I noticed online a lot of people that have reviewed it say it’s slow, but I suspect that they’re developing it for less time than recommended.

 

[markbau]

When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

 

[removedacct1]

When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

I've had similar results back when I first started using the 8x10 sheets of Pancro 400. I adjusted my metering to 160 and got better results, but it still required careful metering to allow for shadow information.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

what developer were you using and what time?

 

[markbau]

what developer were you using and what time?

D76 1:1 17 mins in a hand tank, 10 sec inversions every minute. 250ml dev, 250ml water.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

D76 1:1 17 mins in a hand tank, 10 sec inversions every minute. 250ml dev, 250ml water.

hmm... I don’t know what kind of speed D-76 gives, but 50 seems really far off. I was able to get 320 with continuous agitation in replenished xtol, and with enough time, could get zone one to 0.1 density at 400. I could probably switch over to intermittent agitation to constrain highlight density and still get 0.1 at 400.

Just out of curiosity, how are you determining speed in your setup?

 

[markbau]

hmm... I don’t know what kind of speed D-76 gives, but 50 seems really far off. I was able to get 320 with continuous agitation in replenished xtol, and with enough time, could get zone one to 0.1 density at 400. I could probably switch over to intermittent agitation to constrain highlight density and still get 0.1 at 400.

Just out of curiosity, how are you determining speed in your setup?

The AA way, looking for net density of 0.10 on a 6 month old Heiland densitometer.