Bergger Pancro 400 in Xtol, base fog?

abruzzi · Nov 18, 2019

I shot and developed my first roll of Bergger Pancro 400 on my Pentax 67 (120 film, obviously.) I also shot a roll of TMAX100 at the more or less the same time in the same camera. I developed them both this weekend, and was surprised that the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear. The Bergger was developed in Xtol 1+1 at 20C for 18 minutes, according to the Bergger data sheet. The Bergger is also very fresh--I think the expiration was 2022.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 18, 2019

Yes, I noticed this when I developed a fresh 120 roll last year in Pyrocat-HD. I exposed it in the morning, and developed it that evening. We are talking very heavy B+F. But, the resulting images were lovely.

abruzzi · Nov 18, 2019

thanks. I haven't looked at the images yet, just curious about the results.

removedacct1 · Nov 18, 2019

abruzzi said:
t the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 18, 2019

I wonder if the same with sheet film? That would make it a poor candidate for alt printing. I scanned in the 120 neg and made a lovely carbon transfer print.

markbau · Nov 18, 2019

paulbarden said:
Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

abruzzi · Nov 18, 2019

markbau said:
Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

That time is straight from the datasheet. Xtol 1+1 is 18 minutes, Rodinal 1:50 is 22 minutes, so it seems to be slow developing in everything. (HC-110/B is 9 minutes, but normally HC-110/B is close to 5 minutes for other films.) Don't know the cause though.

markjwyatt · Nov 19, 2019

I noticed it also in DDX (sent to Darkroom). I compare the Bergger B+F to Acros here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fuji-acros-and-bergger-pancro-400.162832/#post-2124400

Tom Kershaw · Nov 19, 2019

I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

GLS · Nov 19, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Yes, I noticed this when I developed a fresh 120 roll last year in Pyrocat-HD

+1

removedacct1 · Nov 19, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

Agreed. It seems its actually a fairly flat 200 speed film that reaches optimal contrast when shot at 400 and processed for longer than usual times.

What I don't quite understand is that Bergger states that fixing times are "longer than normal" for this film, and yet I can see that the clearing time in fresh Ammonium thiosulphate fixer is about one minute (or less). Their own datasheet states:

" In rapid, non hardening fixer, it is recommended to use a dilution of 1+4 for 6 minutes."

I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

Tom Kershaw · Nov 19, 2019

paulbarden said:
I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

I use 6 minutes (1+4 dilution) as my standard fix time processing black & white film in a Jobo as I use T-Max and Delta films so I haven't really thought about this point. As regards Bergger, on a broader point I'm still unclear to what extent their products are worth paying attention to compared to the competition. Adox, ILFORD, and Kodak all make products for which clearer usage information is available.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 13, 2020

paulbarden said:
Yes, totally normal for Pancro 400. It has a much more conspicuous base + fog than many other modern emulsions. It doesn't alter printing times significantly, and the tonality of the film is quite beautiful, so I don't see it as a problem.

markbau said:
Is this why the recommended development times are so much longer than other 400 films? The massive film development site recommends 17 minutes for D 76 1:1.

Tom Kershaw said:
I suspect the reason for the longer development times is that Pancro is probably best used as a 200 speed film.

The developing times in Bergger's data sheet are for a contrast index of 0.7. Base fog probably doesn't come into it. Exposing more overcomes the fog. Developing less for a more "normal" contrast index would probably lower the base fog somewhat too.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 13, 2020

abruzzi said:
I shot and developed my first roll of Bergger Pancro 400 on my Pentax 67 (120 film, obviously.) I also shot a roll of TMAX100 at the more or less the same time in the same camera. I developed them both this weekend, and was surprised that the unexposed parts of the Bergger film were grey and translucent, compared to the TMAX100 where were clear. The Bergger was developed in Xtol 1+1 at 20C for 18 minutes, according to the Bergger data sheet. The Bergger is also very fresh--I think the expiration was 2022.

Is this usual for this film? I haven't scanned or printed to see how the exposures came out, this just threw me a bit.

that’s normal.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 13, 2020

paulbarden said:
Agreed. It seems its actually a fairly flat 200 speed film that reaches optimal contrast when shot at 400 and processed for longer than usual times.

What I don't quite understand is that Bergger states that fixing times are "longer than normal" for this film, and yet I can see that the clearing time in fresh Ammonium thiosulphate fixer is about one minute (or less). Their own datasheet states:

" In rapid, non hardening fixer, it is recommended to use a dilution of 1+4 for 6 minutes."

I can't see why extending the fixing time to 6 full minutes is needed, when the film clears at around 60 seconds. Ideas?

I would only expose it at 200 if developing it for zone contrast. If developing it for ISO contrast, it’s a lot closer to the 320 mark depending on developer used. I posted an H+D curve in another thread a few days ago for replenished xtol and pancro400.
I noticed online a lot of people that have reviewed it say it’s slow, but I suspect that they’re developing it for less time than recommended.

markbau · Jun 14, 2020

When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

removedacct1 · Jun 14, 2020

markbau said:
When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

I've had similar results back when I first started using the 8x10 sheets of Pancro 400. I adjusted my metering to 160 and got better results, but it still required careful metering to allow for shadow information.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 14, 2020

markbau said:
When I did a zone I test I came up with an EI of 50! I'm not using it at the moment but the EI of 50 is about right I think as anything I exposed at 200 had nothing in the shadows.

what developer were you using and what time?

markbau · Jun 14, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
what developer were you using and what time?

D76 1:1 17 mins in a hand tank, 10 sec inversions every minute. 250ml dev, 250ml water.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 15, 2020

markbau said:
D76 1:1 17 mins in a hand tank, 10 sec inversions every minute. 250ml dev, 250ml water.

hmm... I don’t know what kind of speed D-76 gives, but 50 seems really far off. I was able to get 320 with continuous agitation in replenished xtol, and with enough time, could get zone one to 0.1 density at 400. I could probably switch over to intermittent agitation to constrain highlight density and still get 0.1 at 400.

Just out of curiosity, how are you determining speed in your setup?

markbau · Jun 16, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
hmm... I don’t know what kind of speed D-76 gives, but 50 seems really far off. I was able to get 320 with continuous agitation in replenished xtol, and with enough time, could get zone one to 0.1 density at 400. I could probably switch over to intermittent agitation to constrain highlight density and still get 0.1 at 400.

Just out of curiosity, how are you determining speed in your setup?

The AA way, looking for net density of 0.10 on a 6 month old Heiland densitometer.

Bergger Pancro 400 in Xtol, base fog?

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Bergger Pancro 400 in Xtol, base fog?

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