Bergger Pancro 400 H+D Curve with Replenished XTOL for 12:30 at 24C in a JOBO

Adrian Bacon · Jun 11, 2020

For reference, and if anybody wants to discuss.

I've made these exposures as carefully as I could and eliminated as many variables as I realistically could. While it is not scientific, and certainly not up to ISO or probably manufacturer standards, it is as accurate as I can make it with what I have available to me, and certainly accurate enough that I thought it would be share-worthy.

Each of the curves is from film base plus fog up to a correctly exposed 18 percent grey card in full stop increments using a studio strobe, and transmission rated lens set to infinity focus. The strobe was incident metered to 1/10 stop and varies less than +- 0.1 stops shot to shot. The intensity of the light to the film plane was controlled with the lens aperture, so once the strobe power was set, it did not change for the duration of the exposures. The 18 percent grey card filled the frame so there shouldn't be any flare.

The densities were measured with an X-Rite Densitometer.

That is a fantastically straight characteristic curve, AND, at ISO contrast it hits ISO 320 with a zone 1 density of 0.09 and 4 stops up from that at 0.82 density. I imagine that zone contrast would net an extra ~2/3 of a stop exposure and a dev time of about 10 minutes. Just wonderful.

Mick Fagan · Jun 11, 2020

I have been entranced with Bergger Pancro 400 in 4x5" sheet film since I was able to get a hold of some when it was first released. I have not done an evaluation like you have, but my experience with it, is that it has an incredible tonal range and you cannot skimp on developing times, nor should you over develop. Doing either means you really lose either shadow or highlight that is noticeably different. Like all films, it requires correct exposure and correct development for it to work well. If these parameters are carefully observed, then the negatives one gets are fantastic.

There really does appear to be an advantage to the dual emulsions, I have been able to obtain very fine detail in the highlights, and at the same time gotten wonderful shadow detail and not missed anything in-between. In direct tests in the field with FP4+ which is a film I have used since it was released and is my most used film, Bergger Pancro 400 excels in every department just that little bit more than FP4+. For portraiture, it is wonderful with dark hair and light clothing, in that it can hold detail in both, noticeably better than FP4+.

My developing regime is D76 1:1 for 17 minutes at 20ºC; I rate the film at 320.

Mick.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 11, 2020

Mick Fagan said:
I have been entranced with Bergger Pancro 400 in 4x5" sheet film since I was able to get a hold of some when it was first released. I have not done an evaluation like you have, but my experience with it, is that it has an incredible tonal range and you cannot skimp on developing times, nor should you over develop. Doing either means you really lose either shadow or highlight that is noticeably different. Like all films, it requires correct exposure and correct development for it to work well. If these parameters are carefully observed, then the negatives one gets are fantastic.

There really does appear to be an advantage to the dual emulsions, I have been able to obtain very fine detail in the highlights, and at the same time gotten wonderful shadow detail and not missed anything in-between. In direct tests in the field with FP4+ which is a film I have used since it was released and is my most used film, Bergger Pancro 400 excels in every department just that little bit more than FP4+. For portraiture, it is wonderful with dark hair and light clothing, in that it can hold detail in both, noticeably better than FP4+.

My developing regime is D76 1:1 for 17 minutes at 20ºC; I rate the film at 320.

Mick.

in sheet form and 120 roll I like it a lot. In 35mm, it’s a touch grainier than I prefer, but still has a tonality to it that just sings.

I’ve also run it for 13:45 at EI 320. That puts zone 1 right at 0.1 and zone 5 at 0.93. 15 minutes at 320 gives 0.11 and 0.98. 17:30 at 400 gives 0.07 and 0.98 and 20 minutes at 400 gives 0.1 and 1.1 with zone 4 at 0.79, so ~20 minutes looks to be a reasonable push time if you want to shoot it at 640-800.

NortheastPhotographic · Jun 11, 2020

It's a very interesting film. It also handles over exposure quite well. I accidentally exposed some at 125 and processed it normally, I got dense but nice images with a full range of tones. I was intending to use their "Superfine" developer which calls for half speed. It's interesting stuff.

Thank you Adrian for this time with XTol. The 1:1 time is quite long. Are you using 24C because you happen to be using a Super Sidekick? Or a Jobo? Normally I stick to 20C but I'm not dogmattic about it.

From experience I can say do NOT try to use 510 Pyro.

EDIT: Just saw from the graph you're using a Jobo.

ic-racer · Jun 11, 2020

Nice "curve" thanks for sharing.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 11, 2020

NortheastPhotographic said:
It's a very interesting film. It also handles over exposure quite well. I accidentally exposed some at 125 and processed it normally, I got dense but nice images with a full range of tones. I was intending to use their "Superfine" developer which calls for half speed. It's interesting stuff.

Thank you Adrian for this time with XTol. The 1:1 time is quite long. Are you using 24C because you happen to be using a Super Sidekick? Or a Jobo? Normally I stick to 20C but I'm not dogmattic about it.

From experience I can say do NOT try to use 510 Pyro.

EDIT: Just saw from the graph you're using a Jobo.

I standardized on 24C for two reasons: 1) it’s faster and time is money, and 2) during the warmer months of the year the ambient air and water tends to hover closer to 22C, so in the interest of having just one time year round, I just make it 24C.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 12, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
in sheet form...I like it a lot...

Is this curve for the sheet version? When you've developed sheets of Pancro 400 in Jobo Expert drums, what has the base side looked like? Any scratches and/or splotchy marks? Thanks in advance.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 12, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
Is this curve for the sheet version? When you've developed sheets of Pancro 400 in Jobo Expert drums, what has the base side looked like? Any scratches and/or splotchy marks? Thanks in advance.

this is for 135 format, though I have no reason to believe 120 or sheet form would be any different.. I don’t use expert drums so can’t comment on that. On 2509 reels there aren’t any issues. Why do you ask? Dual emulsion does not mean emulsion on both sides.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 12, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
this is for 135 format, though I have no reason to believe 120 or sheet form would be any different.. I don’t use expert drums so can’t comment on that. On 2509 reels there aren’t any issues. Why do you ask? Dual emulsion does not mean emulsion on both sides.

I ask because, in recent years, HP5 Plus sheets in Expert Drums have exhibited those issues. I suspect the cause is a change in whatever back coating (not emulsion) that HARMAN uses, and asked out of curiosity about whether Bergger's product suffers similar problems.

Kodak sheet films don't show any base side artifacts in Expert Drums. I need to run some recent production Delta 100 sheets through the same process and establish whether its more rigid nature compared to HP5 Plus prevents scratches / splotchy marks.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 12, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
I ask because, in recent years, HP5 Plus sheets in Expert Drums have exhibited those issues. I suspect the cause is a change in whatever back coating (not emulsion) that HARMAN uses, and asked out of curiosity about whether Bergger's product suffers similar problems.

Kodak sheet films don't show any base side artifacts in Expert Drums. I need to run some recent production Delta 100 sheets through the same process and establish whether its more rigid nature compared to HP5 Plus prevents scratches / splotchy marks.

ahh... I prefer to get both sides wet. I use 2509 reels and the catlabs CL-81 for the odd 8x10 that comes through the door. I don’t currently have a solution for 5x7, but have never had anybody send any in. If that bridge ever comes up, I’ll cross it then as it doesn’t appear to be that common.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 12, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
...I prefer to get both sides wet...

The chambers in Jobo Expert drums aren't cylindrical. They're "fat waisted," made by hand from sheet stock, specifically to ensure that solutions reach both sides of sheet film. I've never had a problem with anti-halation layers clearing, even on recent-production HP5 Plus. I speculate -- and it's nothing but pure speculation at this point -- that the greater flexibility of that particular product compared to others, meaning centripetal acceleration forces it into closer contact with chamber walls, combined with some change in the back coating, has caused this issue.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 12, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
The chambers in Jobo Expert drums aren't cylindrical. They're "fat waisted," made by hand from sheet stock, specifically to ensure that solutions reach both sides of sheet film. I've never had a problem with anti-halation layers clearing, even on recent-production HP5 Plus. I speculate -- and it's nothing but pure speculation at this point -- that the greater flexibility of that particular product compared to others, meaning centripetal acceleration forces it into closer contact with chamber walls, combined with some change in the back coating, has caused this issue.

hmmm....

https://bergger.com/bergger-pancro-400-plans-films.html?___store=bergger_en&___from_store=bergger_fr

says that it has an under coated antihalation layer that clears during processing. What does that mean? Is it on the back side or under the emulsion? On the roll film it looks like it’s under the emulsion.

they also say that it has an anti-curling layer. I wonder where in the stack it’s located?

Bormental · Jun 12, 2020

I was just reading about this film and was surprised to learn about its design. The "Film Development Cookbook" mentions that most modern emulsions are "dual-emulsion" designs, i.e. use different size/shape crystals of varying sensitivity to extend latitude, but Bergger actually uses two emulsions on both sides of the base. Doesn't it lead to more scratches? Two emulsions on both sides means double the area, but that's assuming that the emulsion side is more prone to scratches than the base. Maybe it's not true during regular handling (pressure plate in-camera) but it has to be true when the film is wet. Anyway, will be very interesting film to try.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 12, 2020

Bormental said:
Bergger actually uses two emulsions on both sides of the base

where did you read that? I very much doubt that it has emulsion on both sides. Looking at the 135 format rolls, I can very clearly see the emulsion side and the shiny side just like every other film.

Bormental · Jun 12, 2020

Nevermind, looks like it was a misinformed blogger. I kept googling this since my previous comment and came to the same conclusion.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 12, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
hmmm....

https://bergger.com/bergger-pancro-400-plans-films.html?___store=bergger_en&___from_store=bergger_fr

says that it has an under coated antihalation layer that clears during processing. What does that mean? Is it on the back side or under the emulsion? On the roll film it looks like it’s under the emulsion.

they also say that it has an anti-curling layer. I wonder where in the stack it’s located?

Bormental said:
I was just reading about this film and was surprised to learn about its design. The "Film Development Cookbook" mentions that most modern emulsions are "dual-emulsion" designs, i.e. use different size/shape crystals of varying sensitivity to extend latitude, but Bergger actually uses two emulsions on both sides of the base. Doesn't it lead to more scratches? Two emulsions on both sides means double the area, but that's assuming that the emulsion side is more prone to scratches than the base. Maybe it's not true during regular handling (pressure plate in-camera) but it has to be true when the film is wet. Anyway, will be very interesting film to try.

Here's the layer diagram for Bergger Pancro 400 sheets:

https://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_en.pdf

138S · Jun 12, 2020

Interesting that its quite linear by +6 overexposure, rated 320

Adrian Bacon · Jun 12, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
Here's the layer diagram for Bergger Pancro 400 sheets:

https://bergger.com/media/wysiwyg/Fiches_techniques/Pancro400_en.pdf

so the anti curling layer is on the back side and the antihalation is under the two emulsions. Interesting.

Lachlan Young · Jun 12, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
so the anti curling layer is on the back side and the antihalation is under the two emulsions. Interesting.

Not an atypical structure - especially not for Agfa/ Inoviscoat I recall. I think this is the adjusted Agfapan 400 formulation that was worked over in the early 2010's to make it behave more like certain Kodak BW neg films.

Tom Kershaw · Jun 13, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Not an atypical structure - especially not for Agfa/ Inoviscoat I recall. I think this is the adjusted Agfapan 400 formulation that was worked over in the early 2010's to make it behave more like certain Kodak BW neg films.

I seem to recall that Adox had plans to bring about this 'Agfapan 400' type product at the time.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 22, 2020

I've posted this as a resource, please continue discussion there: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...lenished-xtol-for-12-30-at-24c-in-a-jobo.428/

lenshood · Jul 15, 2020

Mick Fagan said:
I have been entranced with Bergger Pancro 400 in 4x5" sheet film since I was able to get a hold of some when it was first released. I have not done an evaluation like you have, but my experience with it, is that it has an incredible tonal range and you cannot skimp on developing times, nor should you over develop. Doing either means you really lose either shadow or highlight that is noticeably different. Like all films, it requires correct exposure and correct development for it to work well. If these parameters are carefully observed, then the negatives one gets are fantastic.

There really does appear to be an advantage to the dual emulsions, I have been able to obtain very fine detail in the highlights, and at the same time gotten wonderful shadow detail and not missed anything in-between. In direct tests in the field with FP4+ which is a film I have used since it was released and is my most used film, Bergger Pancro 400 excels in every department just that little bit more than FP4+. For portraiture, it is wonderful with dark hair and light clothing, in that it can hold detail in both, noticeably better than FP4+.

My developing regime is D76 1:1 for 17 minutes at 20ºC; I rate the film at 320.

Mick.

Are you able to get good results using D76 with more than 1 roll in the tank?

Mick Fagan · Jul 16, 2020

lenshood said:
Are you able to get good results using D76 with more than 1 roll in the tank?

I get these results with 4 sheets of 4x5" film in approximately 465ml to 470ml of 1:1 solution using the SP 445 tank designed specifically for 4x5" sheet film. This equates reasonably well to a single roll of 135 roll film.

Mick.

lenshood · Jul 16, 2020

thanks - and apologies for my poor reading comprehension, i realize now you said from the start you were talking about 4x5 sheet film. d'oh. appreciate the wisdom, though.

Mick Fagan · Jul 17, 2020

Lenshood, not a problem at all. It is a wonderful film and if you zero in with your own equipment, I'm sure you'll find it an excellent film.

Mick.

Bergger Pancro 400 H+D Curve with Replenished XTOL for 12:30 at 24C in a JOBO

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