Bergger News

[George Papantoniou]

I think you all push Simon too hard to reveal the details of a business deal that probably are not to be widely known.

 

[Fotohuis]

Once again, we do not sell as private label any of our film or paper products to anybody and have not since HARMAN technology was founded in February 2005.

A very clear and solid statement but that doesn't exclude the use of the production facilities at Ilford.
That only means that old contracts for OEM delivery are terminated during 2005/2006.
Concerning the market development I think this was a very wise decision by Harman technology.

Overall I wish Ilford and Bergger all the best in their international business.
For their distribution channels you can look at their websites:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/home.asp

and

http://www.bergger.com/

Best regards,

Robert

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I don't think it is too hard a concept to grasp - Ilford must have enough excess capacity in their production lines that they are coating a Bergger-specified emulsion onto a Bergger-specified film base. They're not boxing up FP4+ and labeling it Bergger 100, which was the past practice that they have since discontinued.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Take a look at http://www.harmantechnology.com/ to read about the coating services that Harman offers to other companies.

 

[Ian Grant]

David, Harmantechnology.com is a dead link.

Domain Name: HARMANTECHNOLOGY.COM
Registrar: MELBOURNE IT, LTD. D/B/A INTERNET NAMES WORLDWIDE
Whois Server: whois.melbourneit.com
Referral URL: http://www.melbourneit.com
Updated Date: 13-feb-2007
Creation Date: 22-feb-2005
Expiration Date: 22-feb-2013

Meanwhile Harman Technology - Ilford can be found at HarmanTechnology.co.uk

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ian;

I just used David's reference and read several PDF files with some interesting information and pictures.

PE

 

[JLP]

David, Harmantechnology.com is a dead link.

Not so, it works just fine and has a link to Ilford B&W.

jan

 

[Ian Grant]

Apologies to David, the link was dead when I posted, perhaps the server was down temporarily, I can access it now. Thanks Ron and jan.

Ian

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Mark this: Harman offers EMULSION and COATING services, two very distinct services.

http://www.harmantechnology.com/brochures/harman_emulsion.pdf
http://www.harmantechnology.com/brochures/harman_coating.pdf

It may be the case that Bergger uses either, or both services. They may have some deal somewhere else for the emulsion, who knows?

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Just re-read the Bergger press release, and it says "Bergger has made arrangements with Harman Technologies to produce their line of black and white coating processes"

So maybe they are dealing with Harman only for coating, not emulsion production.

By the way, anybody feels like me that they've turned into a "Filmspotter" ? You know, the equivalent of the trainspotters, those who keep tabs of train schedules, boxcar numbers, etc etc?

 

[Matthew Gorringe]

Just re-read the Bergger press release, and it says "Bergger has made arrangements with Harman Technologies to produce their line of black and white coating processes"

So maybe they are dealing with Harman only for coating, not emulsion production.

By the way, anybody feels like me that they've turned into a "Filmspotter" ? You know, the equivalent of the trainspotters, those who keep tabs of train schedules, boxcar numbers, etc etc?

It's all too much for me. I'm going to get a DSLR so I can take pictures of the batch numbers on the back of boxes and post them on the internet.

I have tried all of the Bergger papers and, while very nice, decided they weren't for me at the significantly higher prices they charged. I'm still glad that there's going to be some unusual papers out there like Silver Supreme and hope that the new product is even better.

 

[Rolleijoe]

I said this a long time ago and I will say it again:

Ilford will be the last man standing.

That's when I will cease to be a practising photographer. I don't
deal with monopolies, and am not particularly impressed with
ANY Ilford product.

My 2¢

 

[Paul.]

That's when I will cease to be a practising photographer. I don't
deal with monopolies, and am not particularly impressed with
ANY Ilford product.

My 2¢

If you practice long enough you will get good enough to appreciate Ilford products.
My 2pennorth.
Regards Paul.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

That's when I will cease to be a practising photographer. I don't
deal with monopolies, and am not particularly impressed with
ANY Ilford product.

My 2¢

Well, a skilled film photographer can take any well made film, and get outstanding images from it. You just have to learn its qualities. Same with papers.

Speaking of monopolies....for decades, Polaroid was the only game on the block for instant pictures, and taking Polaroid proofs is (in my opinion) mandatory if you work in the commercial photography field, as I do. Without Polaroid materials I would be sunk. Of course now Fuji offers some limited competetion, but I still use Polaroid.

 

[Rolleijoe]

If you practice long enough you will get good enough to appreciate Ilford products.
My 2pennorth.
Regards Paul.

Paul, have been doing this for over 30 years. Have used Ilford products
on occasion when I had to. Ran my own b&w lab on Maui a few years ago.

Used Agfa paper and Agfa/Kodak chemistry. Ilford ONLY when brought in
by 1 particular customer who insisted her enlargements be done on that
paper.

Was the hardest to work with, and I was never satisfied (although she
loved them).

These days it is only Fotokemika Varycon fiber paper. The closest to Agfa
I've found, and every negative prints great on it.

 

[Ian Grant]

Used Agfa paper and Agfa/Kodak chemistry. Ilford ONLY when brought in
by 1 particular customer who insisted her enlargements be done on that
paper.

Was the hardest to work with, and I was never satisfied (although she
loved them).

These days it is only Fotokemika Varycon fiber paper. The closest to Agfa
I've found, and every negative prints great on it.

Of course we all make choices, mine were Agfa paper & film for years, then Tmax, and later Polywarmtone, which is my preferred combination. But I still use Ilford papers when I need to they are just as easy to use and get on with as any other manufacturers papers. I started printing commercially over 35 years ago and most people I know only used Ilford papers. None ever had any problems.

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Whether you like Ilford products or not is irrelevant to the discussion, but their quality control is highly relevant. And that quality control is SUPERB!
I think that Bergger has a lot to gain from this relationship, and I'm glad that they can stick around for a while longer.

- Thomas

 

[Aurelien]

Well, I have just spoken to M Gerard:
As I said, they will continue the production af all the products that were made in Forte plants. But they can't say if the new products will be exactly the same: indeed, chemicals that were allowed in Hungary are forbidden in England. These slight modifications could (but it is not sure at all) induce slight changes in emulsion behaviour, even formulas are the same.
So, we have to wait (as far as I am concerned, I can't help waiting anymore...) and see. One thing is sure: new products will be bergger products and I am very happy

 

[photo8x10]

I'm very happy too about this news. I think a good news as this, is a very good news.
Best

Stefano

 

[Brac]

It's interesting that on the UK site http://www.linhofstudio.com/ are listed two new Bergger films. These are BRF15 & BRF100 both in 120 only at £24 for 10 rolls. They also still list the 200 & 400 films. The 100 speed film is designed primarily for indoor photography it seems. Who has manufactured these new films I don't know.

On a much earlier point, Ilford used to have more than one plant. As well as transferring their plant from Essex up to Cheshire some years back, they also had the old Lumiere plant in Lyon, France. Certainly at one time some of the RC Multigrade papers were made there. I still have an elderly box of 12" x 10" dating from the 1980's clearly stating "Made in France". I think at one point there may have been a plant in Australia. Be that as it may, Ilford (or Harman Technology as they are today) clearly have the expertise for transferring production from one place to another.

Regarding the Adox CHM films, they seem to have been relabelled FP4+ & HP5+, made either by Ilford or by someone else cutting Ilford bulk materials before the Ilford management buy-out. The fact that the 120 films are in plastic canisters gives a clue, as Ilford's own 120 films have never been packaged in this way. So it is not surprising that this line is difficult to find as supplies run out and it would seem clear that when the remainder are sold there will be no more.

 

[Ole]

... The 100 speed film is designed primarily for indoor photography it seems. Who has manufactured these new films I don't know.
...

Possibly FOMA - the 100 film has increased red sensitivity, so it's effective indoors speed is around 200.

 

[Aurelien]

Clearly, concerning BRF 100 I have a doubt about the manufacturer. I have compared it to Fortepan 100, and it seems to be different. Foma is less probabilistic, because of the transparent PET base of BRF 100, compared to Foma Bluish PET base in 120. I don't know if it is possible for a manufacturer to shift base easily. Another point, the antihalation layer color: green! Only Forte and Filmotec have green antihalation layer.
But maybe, there is no link...

 

[Fotohuis]

http://www.filmotec.de/Produkte/UN_54/V-I-TI-UN54_4.pdf

What you want is what you get

 

[Aurelien]

You mean that BRF 100 is Adaptation of Filmotec UN54 film?

 

[Fotohuis]

Rollei R3 is an adaptation of their T.S.F. PAN 25 a modification on their OrWo NP15.

So why not for Bergger some small UN54 modifications on different base.

It's always just a matter of specification, amount and payment.