Bergger News

Photo Engineer said:

Well, I can't see where Bergger formulas came from. Were they Forte formulas? Or, were they Bergger made by Forte. In the case of being Forte formulas, how did Bergger get them when Forte went belly up? If they were Bergger formulas, then would Bergger give them to Ilford. Either way, it is a case of giving some degree of trade secret to Ilford.

Then again, will Ilford let Bergger people into their closed areas to make the emulsions or will Bergger make them somewhere else and deliver them to Forte? All of this is very hazy to me.

In the end, it sounds more like Ilford will make products to Bergger specs and they may even cut and package them for Bergger. Or, is another company going to do that?

Oh well, one thing is sure. The price of Bergger products will go up.

PE

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Well, I don't claim to actually know anything, but it seems Forte's present ownership has little interest in doing anything other than developing the land on which the Forte factory lies. No reason not to put the formulas up for sale to Gerard & Boucher to take elsewhere to be produced; I doubt many other folks would be lining up to buy them in this age.

And if they actually ARE Bergger formulas; if the choice is between risking loss of IP or folding your tent because you can't get your product produced - well, I think the choice is pretty obvious.

The legalities don't worry me. As for the expense - well, those of in the USA are going to have to get used to paying more for imported stuff in the long-term. That's been a long time coming and it won't be limited to photographic supplies.

I don't doubt for a second that we will see new stock getting produced under a Bergger label by Ilford, but I think we'll simply have to wait and see what sort of products these actually are...

At least it still demonstrates that multiple parties think the production of analog B&W materials are still viable and that isn't anything other than a positive.

aldevo said:

As PhotoEngineer, FotoImpex and others have pointed out...

It is never simple and - rarely possible at all - to take Emulsion A from Company A and produce it at Company B.

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... and get an identical product, yes. But Fotoimpex is doing exactly that. Producing the emulsion and have it coated somewhere else as long as the own coating line is not up and running.

Ulrich

Shouldn't Simon be popping in on this at some point soon? It seems strange that there's all this Ilford-Harman talk going on and we have yet to hear from the man in the know.

Captain_joe6 said:

Shouldn't Simon be popping in on this at some point soon? It seems strange that there's all this Ilford-Harman talk going on and we have yet to hear from the man in the know.

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If the rumour is true, maybe Simon has a good reason not to jump in (yet)....

Well, this is what M Gerard told me: even if formulas will be the same, changes in production line and raw chemicals approvisionnement may provide slight modifications. But global characteristics will be conserved.

Dear All,

As you all know HARMAN technology do NOT sell ILFORD Photo product for private label, but we are obviously a photo manufacturer :

HARMAN technology believe passionately that variety and choice in the analog monochrome film and paper market is vital to ensure a dynamic industry going forward, as it not only encourages competition but ongoing product development, this we believe benefits the industry and all end users. Initiatives such as our 'defend the darkroom' hopefully helps the sales of all producers of analog photo products.

Whilst we are obviously a business, everything we do, and every decision we take is focussed on on the promotion of monochrome photography, for the current generation of our customers and just as important to us, the future generation of customers.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Hi !
I wonder if Harman can disclose a private production agreement between two companies.
Even if they can, it may prove counter productive to say to the regular customers/supporters that Harman is producing a competitor product...
I've worked for Aerospace companies and some mecanical work was done in the factry I was working in for another well known aerospace company just because they can't produce that much in so short a time... It was strange when crossing the factory to see another brand made in house. But this production was well paid and, of course, was very well done by skilled professional.

It took me too long to type. Simon has answered ;-)

So : Bergger new production won't be relabelled Ilford products. That's very good new! I would enjoy to find new BRF 200 coated on acetate base (no curl) and with photo numbering

Ulrich Drolshagen said:

... and get an identical product, yes. But Fotoimpex is doing exactly that. Producing the emulsion and have it coated somewhere else as long as the own coating line is not up and running.

Ulrich

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Well, not exactly if you read the reviews. Even though the changes were intentional, some were necessary to correct faults and others were needed to fix percieved faults (addenda for keeping and paper tint to name a few) and the speed and contrast are just slightly different.

In any event, we will see what results. No one can say for sure until it is done by either company.

PE

Although NB's image characteristics were very appealing, I gave up and discarded all my stock (from several different production batches separated by more than a year) because of coating-related patterns that resulted from Forte's antiquated line. I look forward to an NB line manufactured in HARMAN's first-tier plant. More high quality choices available equals goodness!

Photo Engineer said:

Well, not exactly if you read the reviews. Even though the changes were intentional, some were necessary to correct faults and others were needed to fix percieved faults (addenda for keeping and paper tint to name a few) and the speed and contrast are just slightly different.

In any event, we will see what results. No one can say for sure until it is done by either company.

PE

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You are the expert. But I am sure, Bergger will sell us any difference between their current products and the future ones resulting from the use of different coating plants as substantial improvement

Ulrich

I have no doubt that Ilford can do a far better job at making and coating emulsions than any other operating plants except Fuji and Kodak today. It remains to be seen (with no disrespect to Mirko) whether the resurrection of Agfa products will meet the same quality characteristics, but they probably will.

In any event, we can look forward to an improvement in the Bergger products simply because they are being made at the Ilford plant. My question is whether they will be the same Bergger products, with the same tone and curve shape. This is not a matter of Ilford science and technology, it is a matter of moving formulas between plants where many things differ. You don't just flip a switch. This is one aspect of emulsion transfer (lets call it that for now) that Ilford is not familiar with to any great extent AFAIK, having only one plant.

Kodak had an EQG (Emulsion Quality Group) that met yearly. Their effort was to insure that every lab, world-wide, could produce the exact same emulsions at every scale. To do this, we had a set of standard emulsions that were made everywhere at every scale and then compared. If a lab failed this test, then it was decertified until the problem(s) were fixed.

It was amazing to see the results, and the changes needed to make a Harrow, Chalon and Rochester formula for a simple cubic bromide emulsion (for example) match at all 3 plants and at all 3 scales. That was a minimum total of 9 emulsions and the formulas each differed, but when the correction factors were understood, then we could apply them to all formulas and there was no remaining problem.

Of course, there were plants in Australia, Canada, Brazil, and Colorado to also consider. In addition, there were many labs at each site, so the total number of emulsions to consider was in the hundreds when all was said and done. We saw the results placed on a huge graph for grain size, size distribution, grain type, and photographic qualities such as speed, curve shape, reciprocity and etc. This was a very extensive set of experiments.

Decertification in this process was a blow to the individual lab!

AFAIK, the same thing was done for coating machines, but that was done in a different division.

I hope that this puts things in perspective from my POV.

PE

I'm old enough to remember the problems Ilford had when they moved their plant to the present location in Mobberley, all due to the differences in local water quality.

Yet I'm sure that Bergger and Ilford are working together on producing the "Bergger-est" products possible, and I'm very happy that I won't have to give up those special papers I've grown to love.

Not that I don't like Ilford's papers; it's just that some negatives print far better on some papers than on others. Bergger Art Classic silver Supreme and Ilford Galerie are both very important to me, as are the various flavours of Ilford MG.

Ulrich Drolshagen said:

You are the expert. But I am sure, Bergger will sell us any difference between their current products and the future ones resulting from the use of different coating plants as substantial improvement

Ulrich

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Now that will most certainly prove true

At least an effort is being made to get something called Bergger back into the marketplace. We'll see whether we get the silk purse or the sow's ear, so to speak...

Ole;

I love that "Bergger-est". But it is true.

Best wishes to all concerned.

PE

Adox link

Here is a link to Adox's site that tells which emulsions are being manufactured by Ilford.

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films.html

I do have my facts right. They state the reason for the change in other places on their site as wanting better consistancy in their product.

That says that "Adox CHM" films are being coated by Ilford. I'm not sure which these are, but I'm guessing they are higher speed emulsions, since Efke never has coated films faster than 100, and my impression is that they don't have the technology to do so.

Adox CHS films (Adox/Efke 25, 50, and 100) are being coated in Samobor, Croatia by Efke--

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CHS_Films.html

CHM = Cubic Heterodispers Multilayer

Adox Germany (Fotoimpex) links them to FP4 and HP5.

This CHM sounds more like Ilford technology than Agfa. IDK, as I have not kept up as well as I should in the last years of Agfa's technology.

PE

Simon:

Can you say anything about the distribution of the Bergger materials? Will you be sharing distribution channels (which could mean more easy availabilty)?

Thanks.

Ed

Thanks to everybody in the know. It is really nice to read something this possitive.
Now, where's my Ilford Polo shirt? i need it.


jan

Dear All,

Once again, we do not sell as private label any of our film or paper products to anybody and have not since HARMAN technology was founded in February 2005.

As to Bergger they have their own distribution channels :
Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon,

I think what we're all getting at is wanting to know if you have any details, broad or specific, as to the Harman/Bergger aggreement. It is clear that the Bergger products will absolutely not be relabeled Ilford products, but what then will they be? Is Bergger transferring its formulas and hoping for the best? Are Bergger and Harman working together to generate new formulas for Bergger to use? Or has Bergger cooked up something new on its own and they're simply 'renting' production space? That, I believe, is what we're all trying to get. Bergger paper wil remain distinctly 'Bergger-est' while Ilford/Harman will remain the 'Ilford-est,' even if they are made at the same facility.

Best to all,
Patrick