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Robert

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Sep 10, 2002
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747
I've thought about it but when I did the math it didn't seem like it would make $$$ sense. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think the pre-made low end new cameras are much more then the kit. Or you could find a used camera of some sort. If you like woodworking that's one thing but then you might not need the kit at all.
 

Jim Chinn

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Sep 22, 2002
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If you are wanting to try Large Format I think their are better ways to get started for even less then a Bender kit. The easiest route is to buy a used camera from a shop, swap meet or on Ebay. A good used Calumet C-400 can be bought for between $100 and $250 on Ebay without a lens. This camera while heavy and a monorail provides all view camera movements, has bubble levels and a rotating back.

If you want portability, a Crown Graphic 4x5 is an excellent place to start. These almost always have lenses included and sell between $150 and $350 depending on condition. Does not have near the movements of other cameras, but it folds up and can take a variety of lenses.

My rationale is if you like LF, the Bender will not be adequate for what you may want to do in the future. If you don't like the format, the Bender really has no resale value. The used cameras mentioned can be resold for close to the same that you paid for them if in the same condition as when purchased.

If you really get into LF, the above mentioned cameras will provide an education so you can make a wise choice in purchasing a more modern camera in the future.
 

EUGENE

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Sep 7, 2002
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38
Paul, if your interests are woodworking or model building, building a Bender. It will look good on your display shelf. However, if you are interested in photography, pick up a good used large format camera and lens and spend your spare time this winter learning to use it.
 
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porsche917k

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Sep 26, 2002
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Thanks folks,

Yea, there are indeed many things holding me back on this, and one thing urging me on....

-I do wonder about the quality of this particular kit camera (tho I am good at building things)

-My new Besseler 23CIII can only do up to 120 format film so I can't handle the 4x5 film format...

-Which leads to wanting to do 8x10 format so I can at least do contacts...

-Which leads to wondering about the expense of all this--lenses, film backs, etc....cost of entering large format begins to escalate here....

But something about having the larger area and film surface to work with is very appealing...

My son is a budding photographer as well and this appeals to him. He's had a good taste of succes with his first show this past summer and having sold some prints. What I may do is to just continue to concentrate on our 35mm work, have him take a Nikon School one day class mid-winter, then something here in NYC at ICP as well.

Best,

Paul,

FYI, here's his web site:

Dead Link Removed

If it doesn't load, keep hitting the reload, a friend is hosting it for free and there have been some problems with his server...
 

Robert

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If you are good at basic woodworking check out the camera makers mailing list.

4x5 enlargers aren't that bad if you can pick it up locally. Mine weighs more then a small car [well not quite but close]. Shipping it would have cost more then I paid. My enlarger with 35mm,6x7,6x9 ,two 4x5 negative holders and three different lens boards cost me $250US [depending on the exchange rate I guess] Even got a three month warranty from the local shop.

Used large format lens of various ages seem to show up on ebay. My problem with all this is I'm not sure what to look for. Don't forget you may need a shutter for that lens.

I'm basically in the same boat you are. I've considered the Bender but decided I could do it myself for less or for a little more I could buy the Toyo 45CF. I actually wanted a 5x7 camera for contact prints but wasn't sure about film. I basically tripped over the 4x5 enlarger which I guess locks me into that format.

Does anybody have a feel for the Toyo 45CF? It seems for little more then the price of a new 35mm and a couple of lens a Toyo with the 150mm lens could be had.
 

Jorge

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Hey Porsche here is an excellent deal. This guy has been trying to sell this cameras for about 1 year. When he first announced it he wanted $1000.
Now he is down to half the price, the camera is very good, but since it is not popular in the US I guess nobody took the deal. If I did not have an 8x10 already I would go for this. Fatif 8x10 camera, reducing back to 4x5, lend board....all for $500.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=1384471172
 
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porsche917k

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Sep 26, 2002
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OK, I bid on it, and I wonder if his reserve is the same as the BIN....my problem is, I really don't have "play" money until end of Nov/early Dec...so we'll see where this goes....
 

fparnold

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Sep 21, 2002
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264
Location
Binghamton,
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Multi Format
I have to speak up in defense of the Bender kits. In the case of the 4x5, if you're reasonably handy you'll get a no-frills, but quite functional, monorail with long bellows from it. I built one (I didn't have room in the apartment for a woodworking shop), and have packed it extensively. Like any monorail, it's bulky, but very light in weight, and that's it's real appeal; more movements than a Crown Graphic, lighter and more portable than an old Calumet monorail, less expensive than a Wisner et al.
 
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porsche917k

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Sep 26, 2002
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fparnold: What lense did you pair with it? How was it to build? Were you satisfied with the results? Are you satisfied with the quality of the negs and ultimately the prints? Would love to know and perhaps see some of what you've done with it.

Thanks!

P-
 

Jorge

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Porsche, if you dont get out bid, call the guy and offer him a little more than your max bid, he might go for it as he has had this camera for a long time....
 

Jim Chinn

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Sep 22, 2002
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Omaha, Nebra
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Yes, there are many considerations if one is just starting into LF.
You have already mentioned the lack of an enlarger to handle 4x5 negs, although as someone pointed out they are readily available on the used market. Then you need a enlarging lens. This is one area I would want to get the best glass you can afford. Then you need film holders, loupe, heavier tripod etc.

With 8x10 you can make contacts so you can eliminate the need for the new enlarger, but you will need a very good tripod (of critical importance with 8x10, as important as the lens IMHO) film holders etc etc. Also the larger format is less portable, and will require tray processing of negatives. Also 8x10 film gets expensive with the inevitable mistakes and screwups in learning LF.

But their is something magical about looking at an 8x10 neg on a light table. Also the simplicity of contact printing. And the incredible detail that your prints will show as well as tonality that can not be matched in smaller formats.

For 8x10 a Bender may be a good choice. Used 8x10s that are at all modern are between $500 and $1000 and older ones such as Kodak 2Ds (?) probably would be no better than your Bender kit.
 

fparnold

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Sep 21, 2002
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264
Location
Binghamton,
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Multi Format
p-,

I'm reasonably handy, so the construction came out ok. The worst part is setting the ground glass, but a borrowed caliper and a small ruler marked in 64th (plus some pieces of mat-board used as shims), allowed that to come out well. You have to be careful not to oversand, and some good corner clamps would help construction mightily (I used a couple t-squares and extra c-clamps)

I paired it initially with a 203 f7.7 Ektar and a 127mm Ysaron scavenged from a copy camera. I replaced the Ysaron recently with a 135mm Symmar, and acquired through a bit of luck and haggling a 75mm Nikkor.

My major complaints about the Bender are that it's kind of cumbersome to pack, since you either need a large pack to leave it assembled, or you have to disassemble it and then rethread the risers whenever you want to take a picture, and the bellows are long. If you're doing close-ups with the 203, or you want to mount a longer lens such as a 300 or the old Fuji 420 (?), then it has the bellows draw. This means that at short lengths, it's pretty tight and the movements are badly restricted, unless you use the bag-bellows. I've considered replacing the standard 22" bellows with a 12" for greater portability, but have preferred to spend the money on film instead.

It also can sag when used with the old (solid steel) calumet CN roll-film adapter. A second back (easy enough to construct, and in progress), to accomodate a graflock back such as the Graphic RH or Horseman backs is not that difficult to make.
However, it has more movements than many classic cameras such as the Kodak Ds, Burke and James, or Koronas, and just as many calibration marks and indents (i.e. none), but there's nothing stopping you from adding them either. I added a bag bellows, and then tend to plan my shooting around medium-long (203 + 135 + long bellows) , or medium-wide (135 + 75 + bag). I'm not big on indoor studio work (though trying to learn), so it's a very flexibl e field camera to me.. The biggest problem I've actually had with it is old film holders that I was initially too cheap to throw out (a wooden one with slightly rounded corners).

I'll see about finally scanning and posting some images. I've mainly either made 4x5 cyanotype proof prints, or scanned the negatives (no one heard that) and tweaked them as a precursor towards larger cyanotypes. My conventional prints when I had access to a darkroom were fine, and certainly as sharp as anything I ever did with a borrowed Calumet or Crown Graphic in the past.
 
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porsche917k

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Joined
Sep 26, 2002
Messages
15
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jorge @ Sep 27 2002, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hey Porsche here is an excellent deal. This guy has been trying to sell this cameras for about 1 year. When he first announced it he wanted $1000.
Now he is down to half the price, the camera is very good, but since it is not popular in the US I guess nobody took the deal. If I did not have an 8x10 already I would go for this. Fatif 8x10 camera, reducing back to 4x5, lend board....all for $500.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=1384471172</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
oh well, it went for $499, more than I can spend at the moment....
 

Jorge

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Sep 6, 2002
Messages
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Large Format
sad.gif
Bummer .....it was a nice deal. But dont discourage, there are many great deals now. WHy dotn you try going for a Kodak, Ansco or Burke and James camera. The are mostly in the 200 to 250 range and some of them are quite good working cameras. Look for one with no cracks on the wood, no pinholes in the bellows and all the extensions.
Sure, they are not light, and they are a little bit harder to use than modern cameras, but I tell you my Korona is at least 70 years old and I have a blast with it.
I wish you luck, hope you find something that makes you happy and excited about LF.
 

Changeling1

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2005
Messages
655
Location
Southern Cal
Format
4x5 Format
Focusing

porsche917k said:
I'm considering on eof these kits this winter and wonder if anyone here has had any experience with them? Good, Bad? Indifferent?

http://www.benderphoto.com./8x10.htm

Thanks!

Paul
One major factor in considering a Bender is whether or not you would like "non-geared" focusing. To focus the Bender, or other "kit" cameras, you slide the front standard back and forth on a mono-rail which is quite different from the more usual methods to pull focus. Some people find non-geared focusing "crazy–making" and can't adjust to it at all.
 

gchpaco

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
98
Format
Medium Format
My 4x5 was a Bender. I like it a lot, even without the geared focusing and zeroes for movements. It's very light, and having built it myself I am intimately aware with its little quirks and above all how to fix it if I drop it or perform some other boneheaded maneuver. However, do not underestimate the amount of time involved in building the thing. I'm very pleased with mine and I think building it was a valuable process and I like the size and monorail nature and I will buy my next camera premade for sure.

One positive attribute about the Benders that isn't necessarily obvious is that the accessories are very affordable. Of course, you need to build them yourself, but still.
 

esanford

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Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
637
Location
Hertford Nor
Format
Medium Format
I just built my Bender and I would agree with the previous comment. I have just posted a picture in the technical gallery.
 

doughowk

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Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
1,810
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Format
Large Format
My 1st 4X5 was a Bender, and I still use it occasionally. The owner (Jay?) is very nice to deal with - he took a replacement parts order on a Saturday while driving on LA freeway. The non-geared focus is actually quite easy to deal with as long as the locking for the standards on rail are tight.
 

scott k

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
73
Location
Burlington,
Format
Multi Format
I was in the same boat as you earlier this year. You can get a less expensive 4x5 at the auction site but I really wanted to take pictures with a camera that I built. That and the fact that the Bender is lighter than any of the other 4x5s that I know of closed the deal for me. I plan on doing some hiking to get some nice landscape shots after black fly season here in Green Mountains and Adirondacks. It is bulky and you do have to build it but for me I think it was worth it. I was (and still am) tempted by the Shen Hao, heavy but a nice looking camera. But in this day and age of instant gratification and digital cameras I still want to 'connect' with my subject, experience photography without all the automation getting in the way. So I built the Bender 4x5 and so far have just been shooting black and white and doing all the work in the darkroom. It's been very refreshing.
 

User Removed

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
1,296
Format
Plastic Cameras
I built a Bender 8x10 camera, and I love it. It is BY FAR the lightest 8x10 camera in the world, it fits into a normal school backpack (along with 3 film holders and everything else!) and it is easy to use. If you like building stuff, I say you should get one. Its a very fine camera.
 

Dug

Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
122
Location
Seattle WA U
Format
Multi Format
I built and have used the Bender for 9 years now. It is my traveling 4X5 because it is so light and packs down small. I used it in SE Asia (Cambodia, Thailand, Laos) last year. I mention this because I feel I got my money's worth out of the rig and can travel with it without worrying about it.

It is also nice to build and use accessories: I built an adapter to set the front standard back far enough to use ultra-wide lenses (for about $8.00 in cherry wood and hardware). Finally, Jay Bender is good to work with: he put his name on the camera and has a stake in the success. In an age of declining customer service it is nice to work with Jay.

I am toying with building the Bender 8X10.....
 
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