Bellini E6 Kit

[thuggins]

I just received the Bellini E6 kit and it's pretty disappointing right out of the box. The instructions are a single sheet of paper, most of which is in Italian. Fortunately, my darkroom skills are pretty good from running hundreds of rolls thru Tetenal kits (Please come back!!).

There are a couple of incomplehensible parts, though. For "Preheat" it says "Dry process, avoid pre-heating with water.". What???? How do you even do that? The purpose of the prewash is not only to set the temperature, it is also to soften the gelatin. I can't even imagine how a dry preheat can be done. Will a normal prewash work ok?

For the first developer time the instructions show "6:00/7:00". Are they saying to just kind of wing it? Considering that the first developer time is the most critical part of the process, this ambiguity is inexcusable. As the standard development time for fresh chemicals is 6 minutes, I'm drawn to use that time. The reason this really pisses me off is I stopped using the Unicolor kit because their instructions are ambiguous as to first developer time, causing a couple of rolls to be screwed up.

Any suggestions or experience with this kit would be appreciated.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I just received the Bellini E6 kit and it's pretty disappointing right out of the box. The instructions are a single sheet of paper, most of which is in Italian. Fortunately, my darkroom skills are pretty good from running hundreds of rolls thru Tetenal kits (Please come back!!).

There are a couple of incomplehensible parts, though. For "Preheat" it says "Dry process, avoid pre-heating with water.". What???? How do you even do that? The purpose of the prewash is not only to set the temperature, it is also to soften the gelatin. I can't even imagine how a dry preheat can be done. Will a normal prewash work ok?

For the first developer time the instructions show "6:00/7:00". Are they saying to just kind of wing it? Considering that the first developer time is the most critical part of the process, this ambiguity is inexcusable. As the standard development time for fresh chemicals is 6 minutes, I'm drawn to use that time. The reason this really pisses me off is I stopped using the Unicolor kit because their instructions are ambiguous as to first developer time, causing a couple of rolls to be screwed up.

Any suggestions or experience with this kit would be appreciated.

Yes, they mean dry preheat! Hold the developing tank down in the 38deg water bath with a 3kg weight that fitness freaks use, for 5-10 minutes. I asked them about this ... they do NOT recommend a wet preheat of the tank.

And no, the 6:00/7:00 minutes is NOT "inexcusable"! It all depends on the details of your overall process ... what film, did you really expose properly (checked the shutter for accuracy, the aperture for correct dimensions), how do you agitate and how do you maintain the temperature. Welcome to the world of E6. You'll need 2 or 3 rolls to get the process right for you. For example, I give the first film 7:30 mins in the first developer for Provia 100f 120 size and that's just perfect (for my processing details). I started with 6:30min (average of 6 and 7 minutes) but the results were a bit too dark.

The key thing is to do everything repeatably, and not to vary the process once you have it nailed.

The Bellini E6 kit is one of the best. I make up 500ml at a time and process 4-6 films sequentially in a Paterson tank. Others do not like re-using the solutions, but that can make it expensive.

Good luck.

Finally, if you want a 3/4 bath kit like the old Tetenal one, Adox have resurrected it https://www.fotoimpex.com/chemistry/adox-c-tec-e-6-3-bath-kit-for-12-films-to-mix-1000-ml.html I think Freestyle in the US can supply it.

 

[koraks]

For "Preheat" it says "Dry process, avoid pre-heating with water.". What???? How do you even do that?

Temper the unfilled tank in a process-temperature water jacket.

The purpose of the prewash is not only to set the temperature, it is also to soften the gelatin.

That's unnecessary as the process is designed to work with the dry film hitting the developer directly. There are very long diatribes online on the "presoak, yes or no" topic and the overall conclusion is "do whichever works for you". I've never seen any densitometry results that showed a distinct difference.
Note that in terms of 'softening the gelatin', the developer does a heck of a quicker job than plain water anyway due to the developer's higher pH!

Whether you should use an actual presoak with water is up to you to decide. There are pros & cons to it. In the end, it doesn't really matter for the end result as long as you don't do anything really weird (such as a presoak that lasts more than a few minutes, or uses impure water).

For the first developer time the instructions show "6:00/7:00". Are they saying to just kind of wing it?

It's well documented that Fuji and Kodak films require different FD times. Fuji films appear to prefer a somewhat longer development time.

Considering that the first developer time is the most critical part of the process, this ambiguity is inexcusable.

No, it accurately reflects real-world differences between film products. Note that adjusting the time in first developer is also the most popular way of doing push development, although this would take you outside the 6-7 minute bracket suggested in the instructions.

As the standard development time for fresh chemicals is 6 minutes, I'm drawn to use that time.

The question is what kind of film you'll be processing; see above.

 

[miha]

It's well documented that Fuji and Kodak films require different FD times. Fuji films appear to prefer a somewhat longer development time.

How could this be accommodated by automated labs developing Fuji and Kodak films in the same runs?

 

[koraks]

How could this be accommodated by automated labs developing Fuji and Kodak films in the same runs?

Pick either time and go with that, accepting that some or all of the slides come out processed sub-optimally.
Or in a high-quality lab, batch films by brand and process for the desired time for that particular brand (it's only two anyway). Similar to how you'd handle push processing.

 

[miha]

I've home-developed E100 (new) as well as Provia 100F using both the TT 3-bath, Bellini 6-bath, and Rollei (Fuji) 6-bath kits. About 10-15 years ago, all my chromes were developed commercially. I never notice a difference among brands.

 

[miha]

@thuggins With the Bellini kit, I prewet with the correct water temperature. My darkroom is in the basement, so it’s cold, and it seems I was not able to temper the tank reels and film by simply dipping them in a warm water tub within a reasonable amount of time. I was, of course, reluctant at first to use a water bath based on the instructions.

 

[koraks]

https://www.mr-alvandi.com/downloads/film-and-processing/e6-process-manual.pdf

Note the comment w.r.t 1st developer time.
Arguably, the official times are the same (6:00 according to Fuji when using Fuji Hunt chemistry; see here), but apparently there's a systematic difference in how Kodak and Fuji assess the densitometry, which results in overall darker Fuji slides. This seems to have led to the practice of people preferring to bump the development of Fuji slides.
I have no doubt that many people never noticed any difference, or if they noticed it, didn't mind, and/or didn't attribute it to first development time choices.

 

[miha]

Perhaps that’s why there was so much fuss when Velvia was first introduced - should it be exposed at EI 50, 40, or 32? There were strong camps on both sides.

 

[koraks]

Yes,I think it's related.

 

[thuggins]

@thuggins With the Bellini kit, I prewet with the correct water temperature. My darkroom is in the basement, so it’s cold, and it seems I was not able to temper the tank reels and film by simply dipping them in a warm water tub within a reasonable amount of time. I was, of course, reluctant at first to use a water bath based on the instructions.

Thanks! I was going to do that anyway. I suspect the reason Bellini doesn't nail down the 1st dev times is because a prewash is important to the consistency of the process.


And you are correct about all film brands using the same times. The whole point of E6 (or C41) is to create a standard process regardless of the film. And, no, commercial labs do not run Fuji differently from Kodak!

I'll run a test with prewash and 6 min FD. That is the E6 standard.

 

[brbo]

For the first developer time the instructions show "6:00/7:00". Are they saying to just kind of wing it? Considering that the first developer time is the most critical part of the process, this ambiguity is inexcusable.

No, they are not saying you should wing it. You should pick the developing process (rotary/manual agitation, temperature, pre-wet/no pre-wet (they've clearly made their position on that - I don't agree), etc.) and always hold it within those parameters as tightly as possible. Then establish what the best time is for your process.

Bellini are not the only ones to suggest such workflow.

Fuji Chrome 6X 5L "home" kit (sadly discontinued):

Kodak suggest basically the same.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I just received the Bellini E6 kit and it's pretty disappointing right out of the box. The instructions are a single sheet of paper, most of which is in Italian. Fortunately, my darkroom skills are pretty good from running hundreds of rolls thru Tetenal kits (Please come back!!).

The Tetenal Kit already came back

ADOX C-TEC E-6 3-bath kit for 12 films to mix 1000 ml - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

Succesor for the non available Colortec 3-bath kit. Type-oriented development of all color reverse films in a 3-bath process with first developer, color developer and ...

www.fotoimpex.com

ADOX C-TEC E-6 3-BATH KIT TO MIX 1000ML / 12 ROLLS

ADOX's new 3-Bath E-6 chemical kit for slide film development, designed to meet the needs of film enthusiasts and empower professional photographers alike by offering a seamless development process, ensuring vibrant colors and superior image quality

www.freestylephoto.com

If anything is confusing or unclear in our instructions please let us know. We would very much like to improve

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

Pick either time and go with that, accepting that some or all of the slides come out processed sub-optimally.
Or in a high-quality lab, batch films by brand and process for the desired time for that particular brand (it's only two anyway). Similar to how you'd handle push processing.

When I first started seriously shooting slide film, I mostly shot Fuji products, but occasionally Kodak. I loved Velvia then, as I still do now(and this was when there was only one Velvia) but E100G/E100GX was less expensive and often easier for me to get.

Some of the most gorgeous transparencies I've ever shot came from a little lab in Lexington, Kentucky that closed in 2007. This particular lab ran E6 twice a day, and if you had your film to them by 10:00AM they'd guarantee it by 3:00PM(then 2:00PM would be ready the next morning).

Somewhere or another along the way, I noticed that Kodak I took them would usually be ready by 1:00, while Fuji would push the 3:00 guarantee. If I took a mixed batch, more than once I'd spend some time in the lobby looking at my Kodak film while they finished the Fuji.

I noticed and asked, and they told me at the time that they ran Kodak and Fuji separately because "they turn out better." I didn't push anymore, but have since learned that they PROBABLY were adjusting FD time between the two.

That, I suspect, is also why I was disappointed when I started using a lab that used a minilab-type machine for E6 and would only run it once or twice a week. Kodak always came out beautifully, and my Fuji usually came out looking overexposed. Somewhere along the way, I started following the advice of using EI32 for Velvia 50 at this lab, and was happier. When I'd send to a high volume lab like Dwayne's, I'd get great results shooting everything at box speed.

That's my story/observation from the difference in these...and I'm planning on doing some E6 in a Bellini kit tomorrow. I'm headed out this afternoon to shoot a roll of both E100 and Provia 100F as "controls" for the kit I have.

 

[koraks]

Thanks for sharing that story @Ben Hutcherson - it's very interesting and it could hint indeed at FD differences, but also at differences in chemical makeup that may affect things like acutance and perhaps even color balance.

 

[elollo]

I too had was confused by the Bellini instructions at first. I tried presoaking with water but had the weirdest ghost like colors mostly present
on indoor lighted shots. After switching to putting the jobo tank with a weight on top in my sous vide waterbath the results are great.
I develop ektachrome 100 iso 6,5min at 38C and 200 iso at 10min.
Dave Rollans on youtube is very clear on that the developing times are only guideline and must be established through test strips of film.

 

[mshchem]

E6 six bath is the same no matter who makes it. 1st developer times are derived from control strips. No prewet because these chemicals are designed for dip and dunk machines.

Adox is making a perfect 3 bath (plus a lovely final rinse)

When in doubt use 6'30" 1st development time. Every supplier says the same (6-7 minutes)

You need to pre-warm the tank, water, air, I used to put my old Paterson tank under my sweatshirt next to my skin

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

FWIW, this was how I did the "preheat" with my kit.

Nothing too crazy here except that I had enough stuff in my water bath that I could just wedge the stainless tank in and not have it float off. I also kept it in here during processing when not agitating, especially as over 6.5 minutes the temperature in a stainless tank can drop 2-3 degrees sitting out on the counter(actual measurements I've made for steps where the lid can be off).

I picked up a few of these Nikor tanks with the larger-than-normal pour opening in a big lot on Ebay last month. They're a treat in the 900mL size because they can fill and empty about twice as fast as most of the other SS tanks I've used. I worry less about it for E6, but 3:15 for C41 makes pour times super important.

 

[koraks]

I do something similar but like to keep a little more space between the bottles so that the water flows around a little easier. Helps everything to get up to temperature slightly faster, although in the end, the net result is the same. I also try to keep the developer close to the thermostate in the assumption that temperature will controlled the best in that spot. Final rinse etc. are less critical so can be kept more remotely.
This is for color negative, but for E6 the same principle applies.

 

[mshchem]

FWIW, this was how I did the "preheat" with my kit.

View attachment 388648

Nothing too crazy here except that I had enough stuff in my water bath that I could just wedge the stainless tank in and not have it float off. I also kept it in here during processing when not agitating, especially as over 6.5 minutes the temperature in a stainless tank can drop 2-3 degrees sitting out on the counter(actual measurements I've made for steps where the lid can be off).

I picked up a few of these Nikor tanks with the larger-than-normal pour opening in a big lot on Ebay last month. They're a treat in the 900mL size because they can fill and empty about twice as fast as most of the other SS tanks I've used. I worry less about it for E6, but 3:15 for C41 makes pour times super important.

Perfect, plug it in go to lunch come back to a perfectly stabilized set up! Those really fast pour Nikor tanks are great. Nikor sourced the lids from Japan in a last ditch effort to compete with Paterson and others.

 

[miha]

FWIW, this was how I did the "preheat" with my kit.

I'm using a similar contraption with a NOVA 300W heater and an aquarium water pump to promote water flow around the bottles:

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

I do something similar but like to keep a little more space between the bottles so that the water flows around a little easier. Helps everything to get up to temperature slightly faster, although in the end, the net result is the same. I also try to keep the developer close to the thermostate in the assumption that temperature will controlled the best in that spot. Final rinse etc. are less critical so can be kept more remotely.
This is for color negative, but for E6 the same principle applies.

I usually keep this one a bit less full, but was also planning on mixing some C41 so had more bottles than are strictly required(especially the 3 of distilled water). I set this one up at about 7:00AM with 6 gallon bottles of distilled water, and kept it going through the day. I'll add too that the big 5L bottle in the center is full of tap water-it's really handy to have some already at temperature for washes-I know washing isn't super temperature critical but I also want to avoid a big swing one way or another.

I may still take the lid meant to fit this tub and cut holes in it for the bottles(in the vein of a Jobo tray) as one benefit of having it full is it keeps them from floating around too much.

In general, though, I agree that better water circulation is definitely advantageous, and I tend to put the ones that need the best temperature control closest as well. You'll note that the E6 first developer is directly next to it, which of course is the most critical one of the whole process. I also want the color developer there-I know it goes to completion so extending time isn't an issue, but I've seen C41 tests at lower temperatures that showed some color shift/crossover can happen at the wrong temperature even if density is good. With that said, I don't know if say 38º vs 39º is a big deal on it-the tests I've seen on C41 kits don't seem to have issues until you get down into the 30º range(as a side note, I wish you could safely run C41 at a lower temperature, as I'd love to be able to extend development to ~5 minutes, but I'm not going to experiment with that).

For this particular photo, I'd actually noticed that my CD had gone up close to 40º so I'd shuffled it away to cool it off a bit. This isn't a perfect solution(if such a thing exists) and the thermostat is sat at 40º because I've found that even with an hour of equilibrium time, that tends to give me 39º in the bottles. Otherwise, though, for this cheap unit I've been impressed by its temperature control. Set to 40.0º, the water bath will measure +/-.2º, and even in the far corner it will still usually hold 39º.

This beats the way I did E6 years ago, where I would fill the bath tub up with water has hot as it would come out of the tap(around 47ºC then if I remember correctly), stopper it, and let it sit with all my chemical bottles in it. I'd watch the temperature and "catch" the E6 FD at 39º. I was using the Arista kit then, which is Blix based, and usually doing this my Blix would be around 37º by the time I got to it. Of course, if I wanted to do more, I'd have to top off the tub and do it all again. I got good results, but it used a LOT of water and took a lot of waiting. With this, I set it all up and came back two hours later to mix the E6 chemicals, then gave it all another hour to stabilize.

 

[Samu]

I just received the Bellini E6 kit and it's pretty disappointing right out of the box. The instructions are a single sheet of paper, most of which is in Italian. Fortunately, my darkroom skills are pretty good from running hundreds of rolls thru Tetenal kits (Please come back!!).

There are a couple of incomplehensible parts, though. For "Preheat" it says "Dry process, avoid pre-heating with water.". What???? How do you even do that? The purpose of the prewash is not only to set the temperature, it is also to soften the gelatin. I can't even imagine how a dry preheat can be done. Will a normal prewash work ok?

For the first developer time the instructions show "6:00/7:00". Are they saying to just kind of wing it? Considering that the first developer time is the most critical part of the process, this ambiguity is inexcusable. As the standard development time for fresh chemicals is 6 minutes, I'm drawn to use that time. The reason this really pisses me off is I stopped using the Unicolor kit because their instructions are ambiguous as to first developer time, causing a couple of rolls to be screwed up.

Any suggestions or experience with this kit would be appreciated.

Bellini is pretty standard E6. Refer to TB for Fuji Pro6. or similar instructions if needed. There is nothing out of ordinary in tis chemistry, and all that works for other standardized E6, will also work with this. The 6/7 minuter refers to a suggestion that films manufactured by Fuji should be developed for a loger time then Ektachrome. This suggestion originates in Kodak documentation, but has never been supported by Fuji. Im E6, ultimayely you must finf the times that work best for your workflow, as things like agitation van have a large impact on that. Fo not stick to a FD time not working for you, but try to find what works, and stick to it by standardizing the process as much as possible. Do not try ro develop 12 films with this kit - it is really capable of developing about 7 rolls to an acceptable quality. In my opinion, if not using rotary method, the developer can be used twice. Third time will produce visibly bad slides.

I have used prewash with E6, including Bellini kit, with no ill effects, although Bellini quite strictly recommends not doing it.

 

[Steven Lee]

If anything is confusing or unclear in our instructions please let us know. We would very much like to improve

So far none of the manufacturers came forward with a clear explanation for shortened processes, i.e. 3-bath E6 or 2-bath C41. What's the trade-off I'm making by going for a shorter E6 process? And if there's no quality penalty, why do 6-bath E6 kits (like the one from Bellini) still exist?

Without this explanation I will continue to stick to standard C41/E6 with all baths.

 

[MattKing]

I have used prewash with E6, including Bellini kit, with no ill effects, although Bellini quite strictly recommends not doing it.

With respect to this, is there a possibility that this is a translation issue?
I ask because, in English for some people, "not recommended" means not necessary, while for other people, "not recommended" means "do not do it".