Beginner MF for slide film - 645 vs 67?

tomfrh · Jan 29, 2015

Hello,

I'm a recent convert to 35mm colour slide film. I wish I'd discovered slide film earlier in life - it's so good!

I'm mainly interested in projecting it, and I'd like to try medium format I've read that it looks significantly better than 35mm when projected. I'm not sure how this is possible given how awesome 35mm slides look projected, but I'd like to find out!

I am tossing up between 645 and 67 sizes. Will I see much of a difference between them when projected? Or is it the difference between 645 and 67 mariginal compared to the the difference between 135 and 645?

I'm currently considering a Pentax 645N as this isn't too different to the canonn eos I've been using, and it's not that expensive.

Any suggestions from anyone who's been down this road would be appreciated. If I'm wasting my time stopping at an affordable 645 and should just cough up a few thousand for something better then please let me know. I've certainly paid that for useless digital cameras, ha.

Tom

Paul Howell · Jan 29, 2015

good question, I have 6X6 slides from the 70s, used to make prints, never had a 6X6 projector, I have never seen a 6X7 projector and I don't know if anyone still makes 6X6 or 6X6.45 mounts.

Nick Merritt · Jan 29, 2015

You'll need to research whether projectors for larger than 6x6 are even available. I would go with 6x4.5, but as PDH says, you'll need to find out whether mounts in that size are available still -- 6x6 projectors certainly were made, but I don't know about the smaller size mounts.

superpos · Jan 29, 2015

Hi Tom,
I just read a short article on mf projecting some days ago. If you speak German I am happy to send it to you. The arcticle is from Color Foto 2001/February.

Giving the essence:
There are not many around.

for 6x6
e.g.
Rolleisvision 66 ...
Kindermann Diafocus 66 T

for 6x7
e.g.
Götschmann (e.g. 8585 AV)
Mamiya Pro Cabin 6x7

I saw Götschmann projectors being quite expensive on eBay though.

Happy to give you more info. Just PM me.

Kind regards
Ulrich

Chris Livsey · Jan 29, 2015

Don't forget the Hasselblad PCP 80 with rotary magazine for 6x6 projection !!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section12Projectors.pdf

Slide mounts here: https://www.gepe.com/website/index.asp?pageID=268

but not 6x7

R Paul · Jan 29, 2015

Hi there
I began with a Mamiya645 1000s (nice camera btw) then I picked up an old 6x6 TDC slide projector for like 50 dollars or so on the big auction site, and got 900 cardboard 645 mounts for less the same way. I also buy older glass 6x6 mounts and put the 645 slides in them. Then I use a paint marker to black out open parts of the glass. This protects the really nice slides. For 6x7 they make slide mounts for scrapbooks and such,but projectors are rare. I ended up making one,(for an rb-67) and putting up the slides on a wall is quite fun . Projection is worth the effort
Rob

Jeff Bradford · Jan 29, 2015

I use a Pentax 645N for Velvia. 220 backs are readily available, and fresh 220 rolls of Velvia 50 are available from Japan.
The A series manual focus lenses are the same quality and considerably cheaper than their FA auto-focus counterparts.
My most used lenses are the 45mm and 75mm. There is a 35mm out there, but it ain't cheap.
There are new lenses available for the digital 645Z which do not cover the true 645 frame, so count those out.
The 645N is a joy to use compared to the original 645.

I don't project my transparencies. Mostly I use strips of three to six frames together for a backlit stained-glass effect.

MattKing · Jan 29, 2015

Used 6x6 projectors are a lot easier to find than 6x7 projectors. The 6x6 projectors will handle 6x4.5 as well, of course.

New 6x6 and 6x7 projectors are apparently still being produced, in small quantities and at high prices.

I have a couple of 6x6 projectors and a bunch of not yet used 6x6 and 6x7 mounts. I'm using them with my remaining stask of 120 E100G - they look great!

One useful tip - 6x4.5 backs for the Mamiya RB67 are readily available. So if you like to shoot 6x7 negatives, it is relatively easy to use the same camera for 6x4.5 slides.

LarryP · Jan 29, 2015

Having shot 645 and 6x7 slides myself there's not going to be that much difference between them. I do know it is a huge cost difference in projecting the 6x7. The pentax 645n is a very capable camera I plan on upgrading to one soon from the original 645 which I have and love but prefer the layout of the n for shooting full manual.

Roger Cole · Jan 29, 2015

Freestyle has several choices of slide mounts in both 6x6 and 6x4.5. They aren't cheap, but they are available:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=slide+mounts&page=1

Getting a MF projector is on my "I want to get around to getting one" list as I shoot 35mm slides for projection and own cameras in both 645 and 6x6, plus a 6x7 rollfilm back for my 4x5 for that matter. I'll stick with 645 and 6x6 though for projection.

Roger Cole · Jan 29, 2015

Freestyle has several choices of slide mounts in both 6x6 and 6x4.5. They aren't cheap, but they are available:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=slide+mounts&page=1

B&H has an even better selection:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Type_Slide+Mounts&ci=1495&N=4292349717+4229849849

Getting a MF projector is on my "I want to get around to getting one" list as I shoot 35mm slides for projection and own cameras in both 645 and 6x6, plus a 6x7 rollfilm back for my 4x5 for that matter. I'll stick with 645 and 6x6 though for projection.

Slixtiesix · Jan 30, 2015

6x7 projectors do exist but they are kind of rare and expensive. Currently there was even a new 6x9 projector introduced by Jensen. 6x6 projectors are easier to find and the simple ones can be had quite cheap. Of course more automated models like Hasselblad PCP do still demand their prices. I would take a 6x6 camera into consideration as well, 6x6 is not much smaller than 6x7. Generally I would make the choice depending on the camera. If you want something small and automated, better chose 645. 6x6 is still okay, though most of them are fully manual. 6x7 tend to be much larger.

guangong · Jan 30, 2015

Hassle lad marketed a 6x7 projector made by Leitz(a rebadged Prato 500). Either will work if you have the 6x7 slide carrier. The problem is finding 6x7 glass mounts. The large film area will buckle without glass. At the big auction sight a Korean co. sells 6x7 and6x4.5 glassless mounts. I bought some but have not yet used them.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2015

Given the way E-6 has gone I don't know if I would be too excited about making that kind of investment, in equipment or time. But back in the olden days MF and LF transparencies looked grrrrrrrreat projected (and on the light table too). But good luck to you whatever you end up doing.

Hatchetman · Jan 30, 2015

Used 6x6 projectors can be found relatively inexpensively, not so 6x7.
As far as I know, no one is currently making 6x7 slide mounts, which would be a slight problem. Of course you can always crop 6x7 negatives to 6x6 if you plan accordingly.

bdial · Jan 30, 2015

Another consideration might be the "Super slide" format which is 4x4 cm, these can be used in a standard 35mm projector. They are very impressive compared to standard 35 slides.
Super slide backs for Hasselblads are very cheap, though it's not a particularly economic use of the 120 roll film image area. The backs give you 16 frames on a roll of 120. Or you could always crop to that size using a 645 or whatevef.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2015

Superslide was a wonderful format. A signifficant improvement over 35mm IMO despite the relatively small increase in size. Most of what I love about superslide was square format.

destroya · Jan 30, 2015

I shoot both 645 and 67 slies and project them, actually did some last night. I have a 6x6 projector and use the Gepe anti-newton glass holders. can get em from B&H for about $25 for a box of 20. they are great and keep the fames from popping. I gave up on trying to find a 6x7 projector so if I know im gonna shoot slides to project I try and use the 645. But if I have the 6x7 I will shoot, if the right picture is found, a few of the shot so I can cut one down to fit a 6x6 mount. this way I can project it and still have an untouched frame to scan.

The pentax 645n is a great camera and I love it cause I can use the great and sometimes cheaper pentax 67 lenses on it with the adapter. This way I can carry two bodies and one set of lenses, although I do have 645 lenses. but makes packing easier. I also have a great fuji 645 rangefinder whihc is a smaller and light package for hiking that has a razor sharp lens. great slides from that one.

Tom Taylor · Jan 30, 2015

The Mamiya Pro Cabin 67Z will project both 6x7 and 645 with the assessor 645 adapter. I started in MF with the Pentax 67II and purchased the Cabin 67Z new from B&H during a "Mamiya Day Sale" for $1,000 ($100 discount). I didn't get the 645 adapter and several years later got a 645N (and now the NII) and looked high and low for the adapter but wasn't able to find one. So I purchased the Rollei 66 for ~$400 in mint condition and actually prefer using it for 645 since it has a remote. The Cabin is manual - no remote.

Gepe 645 and 6x7 mounts are still available: https://www.gepe.com/website/index.asp?pageID=268. Luckily I stocked up on these as well as on several hundred 6x7 Blaire K-mounts (cardboard) that Adorama sold for $12.50 for a pack of 50. I have not had any issues with the cardboard mounts and use them to mount transparencies that IMO are not worthy of the glass mount.

A Cabin 67Z occasionally pops up on ebay along with the Rollei 66Z. A good projection screen is amazingly cheap new.

Thomas

pentaxuser · Jan 30, 2015

Back in the 80s the company I worked for used to do a "state of the business" presentation at least once a year and used 35mm slides for an audience of over 100 so needed big projection. No-one ever complained of the lack of sharpness so unless the OP intends to project to a very large audience I would have thought that there would not be a great deal of difference between 35mm and 645 projection in the same way that it is difficult to tell the difference between a 8x10 print from a 35mm neg compared to a 645 neg.

YMMV of course

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2015

Similar experience here, except the company I worked with in the 80s was producing slide-tape training programs. (Remember those, with the "beep" for when to advance the slide?) Never a complaint but when we did marketing presentations with superslides their eyes lit up in a noticeable manner.

tomfrh · Jan 30, 2015

Thank you for all your informative replies! I'm learning a lot!

jadphoto · Jan 30, 2015

If you're mostly interested in projection, I'd go with 645 or Super Slide. If you print or scan and print, 6x7 would be my choice.

If you are unsure, or like the freedom to choose after the fact, Mamiya RB 6x7, Hasselblad, and probably Bronica all have backs that will give you Super Slides when you want, and 6x6 or 6x7 if you prefer. Best of both worlds.

I was also going to suggest one of the 4x4cm twin lens reflex cameras, but you'd want to research 127 slide film first. I shoot occasionally with a Yashica 44, but only B&W and I order Efke film from Freestyle but I haven't checked the availability of color.

JD

tomfrh · Jan 30, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Back in the 80s the company I worked for used to do a "state of the business" presentation at least once a year and used 35mm slides for an audience of over 100 so needed big projection. No-one ever complained of the lack of sharpness so unless the OP intends to project to a very large audience I would have thought that there would not be a great deal of difference between 35mm and 645 projection in the same way that it is difficult to tell the difference between a 8x10 print from a 35mm neg compared to a 645 neg.

YMMV of course

pentaxuser

This comment has got me worried!, as I'm intending to pursue MF slides for projection.

I only project on my apartment wall, so size isn't giant huge - a few metres across at most.

Can anyone else comment on the difference I might or might not see projecting 645 vs 35mm?

Even if you exclude sharpness, I'd intuitively have thought a bigger transparancy with more dye and more light shining through it would simply look better?

MattKing · Jan 30, 2015

tomfrh said:
This comment has got me worried!, as I'm intending to pursue MF slides for projection.

I only project on my apartment wall, so size isn't giant huge - a few metres across at most.

Can anyone else comment on the difference I might or might not see projecting 645 vs 35mm?

Even if you exclude sharpness, I'd intuitively have thought a bigger transparancy with more dye and more light shining through it would simply look better?

pentaxuser's comment is most relevant if you limit your slide projection to just an 8" x 10" screen!

Actually, I think he is commenting as much about how good 35mm projection systems can be, rather than any perceived problem with MF projection.

In addition, historically there was a long period of time when the arguably best film for projection - Kodachrome - was only available in 35mm.

If you are projecting (enlarging) to "a few metres across", there is a visible difference between 6x4.5 and 35mm. You might see more of that difference though if you use a good screen rather than a painted wall.

Beginner MF for slide film - 645 vs 67?

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Beginner MF for slide film - 645 vs 67?

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