Battery Questions

[dynachrome]

I am posting in this forum because most of the AA batteries I use are in flash units with film cameras. Some years ago I had a bad experience with the COSTCO house brand AAs. They either leaked or went dead just sitting in their box way before their expiration dates. On the recommendation of Greg Weber, I switched to Energizer Industrial AAs. I've never had a problem with that brand. A friend who was using a medical device ran it on Duracell Procell C batteries. He would change the batteries way before they were exhausted and gave them to me to use with flash units which had C battery packs. They were very heavy. When my AA supply was getting low, I decided to get some Enetgizer Industrials and some Duracell Procells. The Procells arrived today and are also very heavy. The boxes they came in state that they are gir low drain devices. Does this mean they would not be suitable for use in flash units? I used to mostly use rechargeable NiMh batteries but was not using my flash units enough so I went back to alkalines. I also just ordered some new NiMh batteries and a new charger, maybe more for environmental reasons than for cost. I know that the NiMh batteries recycle the flash units faster but for family photos when the subject is not far away, it doesn't matter as much.

 

[xkaes]

A high-drain device uses a lot of power in a short time (portable video game, MP3/iPod, digital cameras, radio-control toys, cell phones, and GPS receivers – These devices are just like the rabbit running for the finish line!

A low–drain device only uses electricity sometimes (like a TV remote control) or just a little bit over a long period of time (like an alarm clock) – just like the turtle moving slow and steady.

Flashes suck a lot of juice fast.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

I've opted to use lithium batteries, especially the rechargeable variety when available. Modern battery chemistries have benefited enormously from the proliferation of mobile devices. They're lightweight and amenable to high drain applications. I keep a small set topped up and use as needed; the fact that they are rechargeable adds a little incentive not to leave them in the device for a prolonged period.

Here's a detailed comparison of a few different AA varieties:

Spoiler: Youtube link

Alkaline batteries are naturally prone to leaking but the added challenge is that poor batch-to batch-consistency / counterfeits make it even more of a crapshoot. A 'low drain' designation might point to a zinc-carbon formulation which wouldn't have too great a shelf life.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If you have any package of batteries leak or "grow beards" call the company [Every Ready, Duracell, ... ] with the expiration dates on the batteries and package numbers. They will send coupons for money off batteries, but the coupons will not work at Costco.

 

[Chan Tran]

If you use the AA batteries for flash (which is a high drain device) then NiMH is a good choice. Eneloop or the less expensive Ladda from Ikea are good as they have low self discharge. Alkaline batteries leak regarrdless of which brand and they leak even sitting in their original packaging and still have significant amount of energy left in them. I think the law requires them to change the formula for alkaline batteries that makes them more likely to leak. I see more newer batteries leaked than older ones.

 

[Chan Tran]

If you have any package of batteries leak or "grow beards" call the company [Every Ready, Duracell, ... ] with the expiration dates on the batteries and package numbers. They will send coupons for money off batteries, but the coupons will not work at Costco.

Yes I all have Energizer, Duracell and RayoVac batteries leaked and they did give me coupon as well as pay for my damaged flashlights. Still I don't know if they would pay for if the batteries damage a much more expensive device.

 

[dynachrome]

The Procells are alkaline batteries. I would like to find AA size rechargeable lithium batteries with the right voltage. In the past, the ones I found were either NiMh batteries in disguise or special purpose cells with much higher voltage.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yes I all have Energizer, Duracell and RayoVac batteries leaked and they did give me coupon as well as pay for my damaged flashlights. Still I don't know if they would pay for if the batteries damage a much more expensive device.

I should have reported the destruction of my Nikon SB800 strobe damage.

 

[dynachrome]

After doing some reading and watching a few videos, I see that it is possible to get an AA size lithium battery which puts out 1.5 volts. The batteries contain a DC to DC converter which brings the voltage down from 3.7 to 1.5 volts. They generate a near constant 1.5 volts from just charged to exhausted. They aren't terribly expensive so my curiosity may get the better of me.

 

[mshchem]

I use Panasonic Eneloop NiMH rechargeable AA in everything work great. Better than any other rechargeable cells I have used over the years.

 

[M-88]

After doing some reading and watching a few videos, I see that it is possible to get an AA size lithium battery which puts out 1.5 volts. The batteries contain a DC to DC converter which brings the voltage down from 3.7 to 1.5 volts. They generate a near constant 1.5 volts from just charged to exhausted. They aren't terribly expensive so my curiosity may get the better of me.

I can see there's an EBL branded AA sized Li-ion rechargeables on Amazon which come with proprietary charger. Back when I went for Ni-Mh cells, there was no such thing on thr market.

 

[Chan Tran]

I see the rechargeable AA Li-ion is good but I think for the flash Eneloop is better.

 

[Chan Tran]

EBL doesn't specify maximum discharge rate but I asked them and they said it's 2A which I think is less than AA NiMH. Flash can draw higher current than 2A at the start of the recycling cycle. Also the capacity is 3000mWh which means 2000mAh at 1.5V.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

I picked up a big package of Duracell Proboost for the F5. So far so good but only run two rolls through so far. They have a guaranteed 12 year shelf life. We'll see.

I don't like lithium in flashes. They get HOT in steady use. Might be a problem might not but I don't like it.

 

[dynachrome]

I did finally order some rechargeable lithium AAs. It seems that the rechargeable lithium AAs use up some of their interior space with the voltage converter so they net out to have about the same capacity in mAhs as many of the NiMh batteries. In the next week or so a bunch of batteries will arrive and I will be able to experiment with them. Years ago when the Vivitar 292 was my main flash, I tried other ways to power it than the regular rechargeable NC-2. The HVP-1 took a 510 volt battery. This combination gave almost instant recycling even at full power but if too many full power shots were made in succession, the overload light would come on. It was suitable for event photography and was on the lower end of what a working photographer might use. I then got an LVP-2 battery pack. It wasn't meant for use with the 292 but I found a way. I plugged an LVC-3 connecting cord into the LVP-2, removed the NC-2 battery, exposing the two posts and plugged the flash end of the LVC-3 into it. The LVP-2 took four D size batteries. I got 4 amp rechargeable Radio Shack NiCads. These were quite heavy. While I did not get the faster recycling time (faster than an NC-2) I was looking for, I got almost unlimited capacity. One of the sets of batteries I am waiting for is four 10 amp NiMhs. If one of my 292s is still working, this combination should power the flash for a week. If you hear about a loud explosion on the East Coast, I miscalculated.

My last experiment will be finding a way to power my old Metz 403 flash. The 403 is supposed to be powered by a 510 volt battery and has a K II guide number of 93.

 

[MattKing]

My last experiment will be finding a way to power my old Metz 403 flash. The 403 is supposed to be powered by a 510 volt battery and has a K II guide number of 93.

Back in the day, I spent a fair amount of with the distilled water maintaining the lead acid cells on several 202s and 402s - really good flashes!

 

[dynachrome]

Sometimes an Amazon order arrives earlier than expected. What just arrived is a set of four no-name rechargeable AA lithium batteries and a no-name charger. The batteries are in and the charger is plugged into a USB2 outlet on the front of a desktop computer. Here's what's funny about the warning on the back of the box. It reads, in part, "Lithium batteries cannot be used in products that require high current, such as flash units. If used, batteries will become hot, outer skin will peel off, and batteries can't work normally." Who knew? I find that when I use my Pentax K-x (a non-film camera) it works much better with lithium AAs, especially when the flash is used. The lithium AAs I used in it were all single-use types, not rechargeables.

 

[Chan Tran]

Sometimes an Amazon order arrives earlier than expected. What just arrived is a set of four no-name rechargeable AA lithium batteries and a no-name charger. The batteries are in and the charger is plugged into a USB2 outlet on the front of a desktop computer. Here's what's funny about the warning on the back of the box. It reads, in part, "Lithium batteries cannot be used in products that require high current, such as flash units. If used, batteries will become hot, outer skin will peel off, and batteries can't work normally." Who knew? I find that when I use my Pentax K-x (a non-film camera) it works much better with lithium AAs, especially when the flash is used. The lithium AAs I used in it were all single-use types, not rechargeables.

EBL doesn't specify it on their website but I asked them and they said the maximum current on their Lithium Rechargeable AA is 2A which is not good for flash. I know that flash can draw as much as 5A from AA batteries. And the reason is really because of the battery management circuit in their battery which controls the charging as well as regulates the output voltage. The cell inside would probably generate 3.7V or so.

 

[Chan Tran]

Thinking about it since the EBL battery would have a buck converter it may have some noise.

 

[dynachrome]

My EBL kit arrived from walmart.com this afternoon. There are 8 2800mAh AAs and a charger with 4 slots. The batteries are supposed to be pre-charged. I will try them out tonight. Something odd happened earlier with the rechargeable lithium AAs. I put them into an old Quantaray flash just to see if it would power up. It did. I did not fire the flash. I took the batteries out right away and put them into the charger, without plugging the charger in. A few minutes later the batteries were warm. I took them out of the charger and they have cooled down. What happened? I am beginning to think that rechargeable lithium AAs are an idea whose time has not come, at least not yet.

 

[reddesert]

The flash is likely capable of drawing a high current from the batteries while you're charging the capacitor, whether or not you fire it. The batteries don't really contribute to the actual flash firing - they can't dump energy as quickly as a capacitor. Previous generations of lithium AAs (lithium metal AAs, not rechargeable) could overheat in high drain applications because their (lower) internal resistance allowed a high current to be drawn.

There was a long thread about this a while ago where one of our regular posters was agitated about whether or not lithium AAs could be used in various devices. Some flashes and motor drive cameras have a warning against using lithium AAs due to the potential for overheating, but many that were made before lithium AAs were common don't bear the warning. The rechargeables are a different chemistry, but might have a similar issue.

 

[dynachrome]

Several posters have mentioned using AA non-rechargeable lithium batteries in the Canon New F-1 Motor Drive without incident. My wife's comment about trying the rechargeable lithium AAs in a flash? "Don't try them in a flash you really like."

 

[dynachrome]

I tried the pre-charged EBL batteries in a Soligor MK-10A flash. On manual the flash recycled in 8 seconds. The recently installed Kodak alkalines (on sale at the supermarket) took 9 seconds. The EBL batteries did not heat up.

 

[Chan Tran]

The flash is likely capable of drawing a high current from the batteries while you're charging the capacitor, whether or not you fire it. The batteries don't really contribute to the actual flash firing - they can't dump energy as quickly as a capacitor. Previous generations of lithium AAs (lithium metal AAs, not rechargeable) could overheat in high drain applications because their (lower) internal resistance allowed a high current to be drawn.

There was a long thread about this a while ago where one of our regular posters was agitated about whether or not lithium AAs could be used in various devices. Some flashes and motor drive cameras have a warning against using lithium AAs due to the potential for overheating, but many that were made before lithium AAs were common don't bear the warning. The rechargeables are a different chemistry, but might have a similar issue.

As I understand it the rechargeable are the same as Li-Ion rechargeable which are about 3.7V per cell. They have electronic circuit to both control the charging and to regulate the output voltage to 1.5V. Because of this the output voltage stays at 1.5V thru the discharge cycle which is a good thing. I am sure the regulator is a switching device as to not wasting power. This limit the maximum discharge current of about 2A. I think the circuit would cut out the output if the device is trying to draw more current than 2A.

 

[eli griggs]

I use Panasonic Eneloop NiMH rechargeable AA in everything work great. Better than any other rechargeable cells I have used over the years.

I've had the same experience with Eneloop cells as well.