Basic lighting kit for portraits

[Don_ih]

Again, not sure where you intended to go with this diversion, but I remain with the position that the larger the format, the more light you need.

The reason I said anything at all is the fact that you made it sound like bigger film needs more light for reasons of exposure. It's not true. Bigger film only needs more like for practical reasons - namely that you usually must stop down the lens more than you would with smaller format.

Someone mentioned bellows extension. That's irrelevant to what I was saying. You need to factor bellows extension into exposure whenever it's relevant.

Neither bellows extension not aperture limitations change the iso of film.

 

[Pieter12]

The reason I said anything at all is the fact that you made it sound like bigger film needs more light for reasons of exposure. It's not true. Bigger film only needs more like for practical reasons - namely that you usually must stop down the lens more than you would with smaller format.

Someone mentioned bellows extension. That's irrelevant to what I was saying. You need to factor bellows extension into exposure whenever it's relevant.

Neither bellows extension not aperture limitations change the iso of film.

No, but they change the amount of light hitting the film.

 

[Don_ih]

No, but they change the amount of light hitting the film.

So does putting your hand over the lens.

 

[Markus Albertz]

Thank you all for the excellent suggestions. It looks like there are a ton of options for me to consider.

 

[Markus Albertz]

How many lumens are adequate for large format? There are several kits available at B&H with up to 12,000 and even 20,000 lumens (with 2 lamps).
For example:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1697204-REG/zuma_z_led100kit_36_2_s_dual_led_light_kit.html

I'm wondering if there is an official (i.e., vetted) lumens to watts conversion chart.

 

[blee1996]

This is one conversion calculator, which states 100w is about 10,000 lumens for LED light.

Lumens to watts (W) conversion calculator

Luminous flux in lumens (lm) to electric power in watts (W) calculator and how to calculate.

www.rapidtables.com

But other products calculate lumens based on the angle of light and type of reflector, e.g. this 200w model output up to 65,000 lux at 3.3' using its included 55° reflector. So lumens/watts alone might not be entirely comparable.

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[wiltw]

You need to include a shutter speed in that. If the shutter speed is 1/1000, then you can stop down to f16 and still take the photo without much worry. Since an 8x10 will be on a tripod, you can lower the shutter speed to 1/10 without much worry.

...1/10 does not help when there is the potential for any subject motion (like respiration) and you are using a constant light source (not using a very brief light, like a strobe)

 

[wiltw]

How many lumens are adequate for large format? There are several kits available at B&H with up to 12,000 and even 20,000 lumens (with 2 lamps).
For example:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1697204-REG/zuma_z_led100kit_36_2_s_dual_led_light_kit.html

I'm wondering if there is an official (i.e., vetted) lumens to watts conversion chart.

There is NO SINGLE direct conversion for Energy (watts) to light output (lumens)

• This is proven by looking at lumens from 60W incancescent bulbs from different manufacturers (or even different model from same manufacturer)
• This is proven by the fact that two different manufacturer 1000w/s power packs will likely output different intensity light from a head

As for different technologies...
For about 1000W consumed by incandescent bulb, a CFL would consume about 300W and output about the same amount of light, and LED would consume about 100W and output about the same amount of light.

If you shoot f/11 with 135 or 120, and you need to shoot f/22 with 4x5 to get same DOF, if you used 500 w-s power pack with 135 you would need 4x the power -- or 2000 w-s -- for shooting at f/22 with 4x5.

 

[koraks]

How many lumens are adequate for large format? There are several kits available at B&H with up to 12,000 and even 20,000 lumens (with 2 lamps).
For example:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1697204-REG/zuma_z_led100kit_36_2_s_dual_led_light_kit.html

Given my experiences with two 60W LED heads (which will be of comparable lumens/Watt efficiency), two 100W LED heads is still not all that great for 8x10. The kit you linked to is very nice for digital video, but I think it's going to fall short for large format stills.

If you want, I can do some measurements on the dual 60W LED setup I've got in storage here. From there, you could extrapolate to a rough estimate of the power level that would be convenient for your usage. Would this help?

Also, is your objection to strobes based on a perception that continuous light is more intuitive to set up? In this case, I can reassure you that it isn't so bad in practice. Firstly, adjustable model lights on strobe heads can make a big difference. Secondly, you learn the ropes soon enough, being able to 'model' the scene in your imagination as you set it up. A digital camera can help to verify you're on the right track before committing a sheet of 8x10 film to a shot.

 

[Don_ih]

1/10 does not help when there is the potential for any subject motion (like respiration)

I'd like to see respiration visible in a photo taken at 1/10 of a second. I'd genuinely be impressed.

Blinking might be a problem. Blinking might be a problem at 1/1000.

 

[koraks]

1/10 is hit & miss in terms of motion blur with portraits - if critical sharpness is required. It works with some models, not (reliably) with others.
Critical sharpness is of course not necessary in all styles of portrait work. YMMV.

 

[Don_ih]

It works with some models

It works really well with model cars.

1/10 is not going to stop motion. Whether or not it will wasn't the point of my saying it - my point was about exposure. This conversation is like talking about the flavour of overripe bananas and someone constantly saying the peel tastes bad.

 

[koraks]

AFAIK this thread is about what kind of artificial lighting is needed to do portraiture on various formats. I don't feel the exercise of "how marginal of a setup could one possibly get away with" is going to help OP.

 

[Markus Albertz]

Given my experiences with two 60W LED heads (which will be of comparable lumens/Watt efficiency), two 100W LED heads is still not all that great for 8x10. The kit you linked to is very nice for digital video, but I think it's going to fall short for large format stills.

If you want, I can do some measurements on the dual 60W LED setup I've got in storage here. From there, you could extrapolate to a rough estimate of the power level that would be convenient for your usage. Would this help?

Also, is your objection to strobes based on a perception that continuous light is more intuitive to set up? In this case, I can reassure you that it isn't so bad in practice. Firstly, adjustable model lights on strobe heads can make a big difference. Secondly, you learn the ropes soon enough, being able to 'model' the scene in your imagination as you set it up. A digital camera can help to verify you're on the right track before committing a sheet of 8x10 film to a shot.

Yes, I was leaning towards continuous light because I believed it would be much easier to find the sweet spot adjustments for whatever lighting scenario I want to accomplish. I wasn't actually aware of modeling lights on strobes. That's very interesting and may open an entirely new direction for me to explore. Thank you!

 

[MattKing]

Electronic flash(es) with modeling lights are the best choice.
Just make sure that replacements for the modeling light bulbs and flash tubes can easily be obtained.

 

[wiltw]

Electronic flash(es) with modeling lights are the best choice.
Just make sure that replacements for the modeling light bulbs and flash tubes can easily be obtained.

Be aware that economy strobes often have modelling lights that are 100W or less in power (incandescent). And such units are underpowered in providing enough light for your eye to detect the light falling upon the subject when bright outdoor light is coming in through an open window. What works in 'dark studio' does not work in many living rooms! You need a minimum of 150W, but 200-250W is better.
The newest strobes often use LED modelling lights, and these are woefully documented for how might light comes out of the LED modelling light! There seems to be a LACK of an industry standard for spec'ing the brightness of LED modelling lights. Based upon a 'rule of thumb' for comparing output of different types of sources, light output of 100W incandescent is about 30W fluorescent is about 10W LED.

 

[harlequin]

I happen to have shot and currently shoot 8x10 and 6x6 for both portrait and tabletop products bottom line is the 8x10 is going to have bellows draw in both instances you need more light and more watt seconds, I have several Speedotron 2400 w packs and Norman 4K packs to provide the extra 2-3 stops when shooting 8x10. Go into any studio that does product on 8x10 you will see a large quantity of strobe power at their disposal and on demand. If I could shoot 8x10 with a travelite 250 I would and could have saved 9 grand on packs and heads. When I do a portrait on 6x6 or 6x7, I get away with a single source lower powered moonlight say f8 @ 125th. If I transfer those settings to 8x10 same film/speed with a slight bellows draw, the next BW negative or
chrome will be underexposed. Will you get an image yes but the client or AD will find it’s unacceptable. In LA or NY larger studio Rental houses typically have 5k of strobe available on tap, you can always dial down the power as opposed to not having enough. A 35 mm frame is approximately inch by inch and a half and can be exposed properly based on asa rating of the film. Take the exact same emulsion film and put it next to an 8x10 sheet of film (80 square inches) it been a while since I was in physics class but the sheet film is going to need more light to expose 80 sq inches than it would a1” square sweet spot in 35mm. What happens on paper is not what happens in practice. Some Kodak publications on large format portraiture describes it best.

Keep Shooting Film!

Harlequin

 

[_T_]

I’m looking into a similar lighting setup to your desired atm op and my only advice after the research I’ve been doing for the past few months is that I wouldn’t buy any budget kit.

Whatever you buy make sure you end up with a good set of stands. Everything else can be upgraded over time as you need but those cheap light stands are a waste of money when you could get a set of turtle base c stands and never have to spend money to improve upon them again

As for the appropriate number of lumens for continuous light, the general formula is 1000 lumens allows an exposure at ISO 100 of 1/50s at f2.8

Each doubling in lumens is one additional stop of exposure so you take the listed output of the light, divide it by 1000 and hit the log2 button on your calculator to find out how many stops of exposure above the above listed you can expect to get log2(lumens/1000)

How many lumens you need depends on the exposures you intend to make. The lower the iso you want to shoot, the smaller the aperture and the faster the shutter speeds you want the more lumens you’ll need

 

[Pieter12]

c stands and never have to spend money to improve upon them again

Very true. If you intend to work much on locations, be aware that C-stands are not very portable unless you have a van or SUV/station wagon. And you're going to want a cart or an assistant to help, as they can be quite heavy. There are decent folding stands out there that are strong and more portable, and probably cost about the same. The cheesy stands that are sometimes packaged with kits do come in handy for holding reflectors and flags when necessary. Whatever stands you end up with always use sandbags to anchor them.

 

[eli griggs]

Electronic flash(es) with modeling lights are the best choice.
Just make sure that replacements for the modeling light bulbs and flash tubes can easily be obtained.

It's been years since I've used them but Black Line Speedtrons used a very expensive modeling light and if you allowed it to touch flesh, your finger for example, you might as well pull out your phone and order two more, cause the 'fingered' lamp bulb has had the kiss of death from your body oils.

You just do no know yet how soon it'll die and leave you in middle of a shoot, at the very worse moment you'll see that day.

 

[Pieter12]

It's been years since I've used them but Black Line Speedtrons used a very expensive modeling light and if you allowed it to touch flesh, your finger for example, you might as well pull out your phone and order two more, cause the 'fingered' lamp bulb has had the kiss of death from your body oils.

You just do no know yet how soon it'll die and leave you in middle of a shoot, at the very worse moment you'll see that day.

A dead modeling light does not make the flash inoperable, just more difficult to judge the lighting. If you use a setup you are familiar with, you can still make the shot.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Good Day,

I'm looking for a basic, nevertheless good quality, and affordable lighting kit (two lamps and stands) for portraits. Mostly indoors, various cameras, mostly black & white, but perhaps also some color.
I poked around at B and H but found the options and price ranges a bit overwhelming.

Any suggestions? Perhaps there are pre-existing threads that someone can point me to?

Many thanks in advance.

I can highly recommend the products from Walimex. They offer robust quality products for a very reasonable price

 

[eli griggs]

A dead modeling light does not make the flash inoperable, just more difficult to judge the lighting. If you use a setup you are familiar with, you can still make the shot.

No doubt, but the modeling lights are a great time saver when you are giving it your best effort and the model(s) is/are cranky and a happy model or art director is what pays next month's bills.

 

[Pieter12]

No doubt, but the modeling lights are a great time saver when you are giving it your best effort and the model(s) is/are cranky and a happy model or art director is what pays next month's bills.

If you are working commercially, it is pretty foolish not to have spares on hand, not to mention not knowing how to handle a halogen bulb. And unless the model is a celebrity, they don’t have much say in the shoot. A cranky model won’t get much repeat work.

 

[eli griggs]

Yes, I'm a big advocate for multiples of spares, but, especially if you work directly with an agency, in my old experience, everything that happens in a studio or a shoot, is reported/shared with the agencies owner, manager, other models, and eventually, with the hair stylist, clothing stylist and make-up styles.

Keep in mind, good models will have both local, regional or/and national agencies.

Also, an enthusiastic model might just get you a higher level exposure and bigger clients, than just shooting local talent.

I liked working with models who were just starting out and wanting head, glamor, three quarter, full length, swimsuit, underthings, automobile, and various location or themed shots.

She got a beautiful new camisole, and wants to show it off in her book, based on a shot in Elle or Biker Tramps, done.

Besides keeping the model and friends happy and wanting more of your work, if you do no run a good "ship", the owners/managers are/were quite picky in whom they let shoot their models, and no allowing a bad photographer/studio have access to their best/prettiest/bullish people, whom are this week's prime earners for that agency.

Often enough, an agency has particular look they want to see their people in and, guess what, they buy your photographs too, if you deliver "The Shot!".

These are my experiences and it's just good business to ensure you get the shots needed and the talent leaves your studio, with a positive attitude about you, your working style, and the shots that are coming down the line (analog, of course).

IMO.