Barrel lens on 4x5 ? capture

[harlequin]

Greetings Photorio and APUG fans.....

I recently acquired a Schneider symmar 240 5.6/420 f12 convertible barrel lens with only aperature control.

I want to attempt some dreamy portraits using my toyo 45...

A) is 240mm ok for portraiture or should I remove front element?
B) 420 mm would be interesting perspective at 6 feet from model would I have ridiculous bellow extension?
C) I have heard it advisable to use yellow filter if using rear element only?
D) Short of making some sort of shutter mechanism, I will be using 100 asa film with constant light in soft box not strobe lighting so I can see what the effect of lighting with constantcool light, can I use lens cap as primitive shutter or light blocker?
E) for the film noir dreamy look I am going for, exposure times would be anywhere from 1/8 th of a second to about 5 seconds.

Has anyone done this successfully? Please let me know if I am missing anything, I would like to capture this portrait using 10 sheets not 50......

Many thanks for your input
I keep looking at the local thrift stores for a clean coral 3 shutter to put my glass in, but no luck yet...

Harlequin

 

[Ian Grant]

240mm is fine for portraits, at 420mm focussed at 6ft you need a lot of bellows extension,

You have a few shutter options, first is get a Speed Graphic they have a focal pane shutter but bellows extension is around 12"/300mm so with a 240mm lens you'll be tight on close portraits. 420mm would be out of the question. A Sinar shutter is an option but they are expensive, you'd find a 240mm in a shutter for less, Packard shutters can be used but they have no speed control, I have a Gitzo front mounting shutter (Luc type) that would fit a 240mm Symmar but they are a single speed and B & T with flash sync.

My favourite shutters are Thornton Pickard roller blind but they are quite rare in the US, I have large ones that fit my 20" RR and similar lenses 1/10 to 1/90 with T made in two versions front mounting or between lens and lens-board. Thornton Pickard also sold Focal Plane shutters that attach to the rear of the camera (I have a couple), Graflex and MPP also made them.

Sometimes modern shutters turn up but rarely Copal #3 and when they do are expensive, but you might find a Compound 3.

First decide what camera, a monorail or Linhof Technica or MPP MicroTechnical will give you better bellows extension, but most would suggest a Speed Graphic for barrel lenses and they are plentiful and cheap in the US.

Ian

 

[John Earley]

One more option would be to use a neutral density filter and longer exposure (with lens cap shutter) if your portrait subject can stay immovable for the entire time. Also use of an enlarging paper negative rated at ISO 6 would allow a longer exposure.

 

[Nokton48]

I have a couple of these Schneider 240mm f5.6 Symmar chrome convertible lenses. I use mine with Sinar Norma cameras, and the Sinar Norma Shutter is an integral part of that system. That said, this is a super sharp Plasmat lens, covering 5x7" at infinity, and of course the circle grows as you go closer. I've never used mine rear element only, frankly I have better 420ish lenses in my studio. This lens also came in a Compur shutter, but if you simply screw the lenses in, they will not be optimized for best performance, but on the other hand, they might be fine for your "dreamy" portrait project? In a darkened room you could take off the lens cap, pop your strobe, and put the cap back on. I think it's a Compur #2 you would want (I can look it up if you want), you would also have to calculate f/stops and mark them on the shutter. So in some ways it would be easier to leave it in it's barrel. Or you could put it on a focal plane camera, like a 4x5 Graflex or Speed Graphic. I use this lens on my 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex and it's a great lens.

For a "dreamy" effect are you thinking soft focus? All kinds of diffusion are available to use.

002 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Here is one of my 240mm Symmar lenses, it's the one in the far upper right. The other two lenses are the 240mm Xenar, and the black 240mm F5.6 Symmar-S. Shown with some of my Plaubel Makiflex stuff.

 

[jim10219]

Your cheapest solution is to get an old studio flash system and use it in a dark room. Look for an old cheap studio flash (like a Novatron), the kind with a power pack and heads, not the newer "monolights" that have the power supply build into the heads (which would also work, but probably be much more expensive). Those usually came with modeling lights, which allow you to position the lights with constant lighting to get everything just right. Then, when you're ready to take the photo, you load the film, kill the lights, remove the lens cap, pop the flash, and replace the lens cap before turning the lights back on. These old studio strobes can often be found for dirt cheap, especially locally (as they're heavy and expensive to ship).

You could also build a guillotine shutter. It's basically a gravity powered shutter. They're not super accurate, but often good enough to get a usable exposure if you're not trying to push the limits of your film. You adjust the time of the exposure by adjusting the height of the slit.

Outside of those two, your best bet would be to buy a new lens with a shutter built into it. Barrell lenses are only really cheaper if you already have a camera with a shutter to use with them. The problem with using a ND filter or really slow film is you have really, really long exposures. Most people can't remain perfectly still for that long, so you'll likely get a lot of blurry pictures. I find it hard enough to keep people from moving out of focus in the time it takes me to load film, pull the dark slide, and snap the shutter on my view cameras.

 

[Ian Grant]

If you wanted to use studio flash a post War LUC type shutter with flash sync would be ideal. I have a large Gitzo shutter tat would be ideal with a 240mm Symmar, one speed and flash sync. I have three front mounting shutters with flash sync so I think they were reasonably common.

Ian

 

[jimgalli]

Look on google for ways to front mount a "Packard" shutter. The packard is easy to sync up with flash too. Some have sync built in at the factory, but all you need is the piston action to close a contact at full open for a flash lamp setup to work. Unfortunately there's nothing very dreamy about old Symmar's. Nice capable old lenses but not what I consider dreamy. Dreamy can get expensive fast. Beware.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ideally a Packard shutter is mounted on the inside of a wooden lens board, Kodak Ltd sold the Dallmeyer version pre-mounted on a lens board, which in turn takes smaller lens boards for the lenses themselves. However this is unlikely to be possible with a 5x4 camera.

This is the Kodak Ltd (UK) 1940 offering for shutters for barrel lenses in their 1940 Professional Catalogue:

Dallmeyer made Packard shutters under licence here in the UK, B&J sold Thornton Pickard shutters in the US often the less common Aluminium casing.

So far the largest TP shutter I've found is a 3½" front mounting version. The TP studio shutter is listed but not illustrated this has no speed control, I have a couple to restore.

For Jim Galli, here's a TP shutter on my 20" RR lens:

Ian