Bad Pan F ??

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erikg

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Thank you Simon, for this and for your continued involvement here on Apug. Could you point me to the official word on the latent image properties of Pan-F+? Pan-F has long been one of my favorite films and if I pass information about it along I want to know I'm being correct.

Thanks,
Erik

 

MattKing

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I have never found the relative density of the edge printing on film to be a reliable indicator of anything.

Latent images degrade over time. The rate of degradation is complex and hard to predict.
 

NB23

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I have never found the relative density of the edge printing on film to be a reliable indicator of anything.

Latent images degrade over time. The rate of degradation is complex and hard to predict.


They are good indicators to tell development errors. Also, since they are exposed at the manufacturing stage they shall, logically, tell us a thing or two on the latent image stability.
 
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...since they are exposed at the manufacturing stage they shall, logically, tell us a thing or two on the latent image stability.

There is a possibility that the film rebate exposure system is exposing all film with the same intensity.

If that's the case, the Pan-F+ is an ISO 50 film, which is less sensitive than any of their other films.

That is one possibility to why the edge markings may show up less prominently with this film, but that is nothing more than a guess on my behalf.
 

NB23

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Simon,
I am a very regular HP5 user and lover and I print on Ilford papers almost exclusively. I've really only had unpredictable results with Pan-F from time to time.
My scratched FP-4 film issues date from 1994.
 

StoneNYC

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Simon,
I am a very regular HP5 user and lover and I print on Ilford papers almost exclusively. I've really only had unpredictable results with Pan-F from time to time.
My scratched FP-4 film issues date from 1994.

If your edge markings are strong on the film, then perhaps you over developed? That would explain that perhaps? Why don't you actually send in the film to Ilford to have it examined to have them see if they can determine the issue instead of reiterating your perceived QC issues...


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sepiareverb

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So Ned, just so you know what we're talking about here are frames from three rolls of PanF+, all shot at iso 40 and all run in DD-X 1:4. This has been my normal way of shooting and developing Pan F+ for about four years now. (Pardon my iPhone through the loupe shots here)

These first two are from the same batch of PanF+, which was dated 2015. One developed in March last year and the other developed last week.

Expiration date 2015, exposed & Developed March 2012:


Expiration date 2015, exposed and developed April 2013:


Expiration date 2016, exposed and developed April 2013:


I would completely expect that a roll from this 2016 batch will have equally thin edgeprinting should any of it be left here in May of 2014. When exposed and developed promptly the image area develops normally. The edge printing changes in intensity depending on the age of the film. I first came across this with a roll of PanF+ I let sit for a long while - several months waiting till I had more rolls to fill up a developing tank. The "old" film was markedly thinner overall despite being processed in the same tank, and noticeably thinner than films exposed during the same period but developed promptly.
 
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Well, your excellent test throws my theory right out the window. I'm glad I was wrong.

It would be interesting to see a test where a roll of film is kept in the same camera, and the exact same picture (studio, obviously) taken once per week on the same roll, meaning 36 weeks to finish it, and then process to see the results.
 

sepiareverb

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That would be interesting. I'd maybe suggest every ten days so as to lengthen the timeframe a little.


I will note that the edgeprinting on PanF+ is never as intense as with HP5 or FP4 (tho I don't shoot much FP4 these days)

PanF+ is one of my main films, as the slowest pan emulsion in ready supply I expect it will remain so for a very long time.
 

StoneNYC

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Please send this to ilford I would like to hear their explanation please.


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

NB23

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Bob,
Very interessant.

But why, then, does my "expired in 2005 but shot in March and developed in April" Pan-F look like your "Expiration date 2015, exposed & Developed March 2012"?


If the "poor latent image" theory was true my negs should show no markings at all. But yet they do and they are very contrasty. This clearly contradicts the theory. And yet, I've also had very faint images shot on fresh pan-f.
 

sepiareverb

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Well we keep reading this but we do not see this...


And yet, I've also had very faint images shot on fresh pan-f.

We all make mistakes in exposure and development from time to time. This is really nothing to be embarrassed about.
 
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StoneNYC

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PLEASE send it to ilford.. I'm getting tired of you being so insistent yet failing to to do the easiest thing which is find out from the source, not just for you but for us...

Not to be rude but... Put up, or shut up...


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

wblynch

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From what I see the images are as expected but the concern is about the edge markings?

Who gives a shoot about the markings? As long as there are pictures...
 

Roger Cole

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From what I see the images are as expected but the concern is about the edge markings?

Who gives a shoot about the markings? As long as there are pictures...

I don't think there's any "concern" about the edge markings. They're just a marker for the known poor latent image stability of Pan F+. The film keeps fine in the sense that you can expose it up to (and in practice after) expiration date and still get fine image results, as long as you process promptly. But if you don't process promptly the image begins to fade. The edge mark fading just confirms that, since they are exposed into the film at Ilford. This doesn't hurt anything, unless you really need those edge marks for some reason.
 

StoneNYC

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I JUST developed a roll of pan F shot at 100 and developed at 80, I'll post them soon after I scan, the image is SLIGHTLY faded, but I didn't fully push it so I sort of expected that...



As you can see the PanF words at the bottom are totally gone, and yet the arrows at the top are clear (though light) I under developed this roll on purpose partly because of this conversation, it appears at least on the 120, the pan f wording on the bottom is less-imprinted than the arrows at the top. Wonder if this is the issue for the OP?


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

StoneNYC

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Soo... Even my negs just looked too thin, I was kind of surprised when I saw and then wondered if the OP was right, then I just realized I measured for 35mm instead of 120 so instead of 1:50 in Rodinal I did 1:100 ... But developed for 1:50 times... So this is USER ERROR and my fail... Kind of sad, the images still scan OK but would have a much higher contrast which is what I was looking for, instead they are smooth er... Oh well... That's what you get for rushing....


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

StoneNYC

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As promised... the image that I posted earlier ... and then some product placement... I'm really pissed about the bad development, that product placement would have been MUCH better :/

 
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Dear Stone,

I will never look at a roll of PAN F + in the same light again....forgive me if I decide not to use that image in the 2014 calender....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 

sepiareverb

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Dear Stone,

I will never look at a roll of PAN F + in the same light again....forgive me if I decide not to use that image in the 2014 calender....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

I'm looking forward to the special apug edition Ilford calendar!
 

John Wiegerink

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Dear Stone,

I will never look at a roll of PAN F + in the same light again....forgive me if I decide not to use that image in the 2014 calender....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

The first shot of the Ilord pan F+ film box is really eye catching! The second shot is less so for me, but I'm 63 yrs old and not into nose rings, tattoo's, big holes in earlobes or spiker haircuts anymore. I'm still concentrating on the first shot and whether or not the film box would be better on the right cheek or the left cheek? No matter what, PanF+ is great stuff. JohnW
 

StoneNYC

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If the box were on the closer cheek, it would block the buttocks crease which would make it less interesting


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

StoneNYC

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Dear Stone,

I will never look at a roll of PAN F + in the same light again....forgive me if I decide not to use that image in the 2014 calender....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Haha well considering I used half the needed developer and totally the wrong contrast, I'm not too disappointed as I'm almost embarrassed about how it came out haha, but thank you.

Perhaps there is an image you would prefer in this genre? I take custom orders


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

noacronym

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Why is this thread still here? There's no bad Ilford film. Just gives the wrong idea.
 
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