Bad Pan F ??

brianentz · Apr 2, 2013

I just had a bit of a surprise. I just opened up four boxes of ilford pan f 35mm film. They had been in my fridge for several months. Possibly just at freezing temp. When I opened the boxes I found that each of the four canisters had their caps off. That's right - in unopened box with caps OFF. Don't know how that happened. So they've been at freezing temp with the caps off. So... are they any good? I've never encountered this before. I don't want to shoot and process them if the film has 'freezer burn'.

What do you think?

Simon R Galley · Apr 2, 2013

Very Odd,

We use only 'crimped' cassettes so they do not 'pop'. Even if the cassette got damp and froze it should not 'pop' the top unless it was actually full of water?

When you say they were 'in the box' where they also in the plastic tub ? if so it is unexplainable
( send me the batch number ).

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon R Galley · Apr 2, 2013

PS : If you have 'seen' the film with popped end caps the film is fogged and lost I'm afraid.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

davedm · Apr 2, 2013

I think he means that plastic can/canister caps have come off from the can and not the cassette caps.

tony lockerbie · Apr 2, 2013

davedm said:
I think he means that plastic can/canister caps have come off from the can and not the cassette caps.

Yep, I reckon that's it, still odd thing to happen if the film is still in the box, but the film should be fine, just let it warm up and dry thoroughly before using. I personally never freeze film, just keep it in a very cold fridge and leave it a few hours before using.

Simon R Galley · Apr 2, 2013

Thanks Davedm.

I should read more slowly, or understand quicker !

Thats easier then, the two plastics used in the tubs have a different make up and probably the bottom contracted and squeezed the top off or vice versa....still a bit odd.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

NB23 · Apr 2, 2013

Film is not food.

PhotoJim · Apr 2, 2013

Likely fine. If you immediately put the film back in the freezer, put the lids back on the canisters, and thaw as slowly as you can. Shoot a test roll before shooting anything important, but I expect no ill effects.

Ian Grant · Apr 2, 2013

PhotoJim said:
thaw as slowly as you can.

That's Ilford's recommendation as well.

Ian

NB23 · Apr 2, 2013

I don't get all these warnings and extra careful manipulations.

I really don't care how I handle my films in and out of the freezer. No ziploc, no extra care, no slow thawing, no second thoughts on condensation. All this is BS to me. When its frozen, I hold it in my hand for a few seconds, until it's not cold anymore. About 15 seconds. And then pitch it in my camera and start shooting.

Roger Cole · Apr 2, 2013

What he said though I do let it warm slowly and any condensation to evaporate naturally. But your film will be fine.

pentaxuser · Apr 2, 2013

NB23 said:
All this is BS to me. When its frozen, I hold it in my hand for a few seconds, until it's not cold anymore. About 15 seconds. And then pitch it in my camera and start shooting.

I think you are saying that from say minus 18 degrees centrigrade to loaded and shooting in camera is 15 secs in the hand?

Have I got this right? Thanks

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Apr 2, 2013

pentaxuser said:
I think you are saying that from say minus 18 degrees centrigrade to loaded and shooting in camera is 15 secs in the hand?

Have I got this right? Thanks

pentaxuser

and you were there when Ilford told us this was the cause of some problems.

NB23 said:
I don't get all these warnings and extra careful manipulations.

I really don't care how I handle my films in and out of the freezer. No ziploc, no extra care, no slow thawing, no second thoughts on condensation. All this is BS to me. When its frozen, I hold it in my hand for a few seconds, until it's not cold anymore. About 15 seconds. And then pitch it in my camera and start shooting.

You do as you like, but just be aware the film manufacturers havve all seen customer complaints which were caused by poor storage, low temperatures and not allowing time to warm up properly "slowly" - all caused by the customers themselves.

Ian

pentaxuser · Apr 2, 2013

Most of the evidence I have heard and read, Ian, suggests strongly that you are right on both counts in your post. However there has often been occasions on APUG when what I have read is not exactly what the person posting meant. There might be some potential for a different and wrong interpretation on my part such as "freezer" has been used for fridge where the scope for a trouble free 15 second warm-up and use may be much greater.

I am hoping to get clarification that my interpretation of what was said in the quote was in fact a correct interpretation on my part.

I await confirmation or otherwise of my understanding of what NB23 said.

pentaxuser

NB23 · Apr 2, 2013

Of course.
Film is so thin. And from minus 18 to plus 20 in 15 seconds is about what it takes for a roll of film in my hand.

About manufacturers recommendations, they have to sound serious and the have to recommend something.

Newt_on_Swings · Apr 2, 2013

I did that once. I was in a rush to develop a few rolls of film as I had a little bit of time. I used to store my exposed but undeveloped rolls in the fridge if I couldn't develop it right away. Took them out only let it warm up for a few minutes on the counter and popped them out to develop. The film had stuck itself to its own emulsion from that bit of condensation. a hassle to peel off and load. So I stopped keeping exposed film in the fridge, and let any films warm up over a good hour of time if they are from the freezer.

Also today I was outside for a bit shooting and it was very windy and a little chilly at about 40F. Finished a roll of Panatomic X, rewound it, and I usually leave a bit of leader out( if I'm going to reload a non reloadable cassette without destroying it with a bottle opener it gives me one or two more uses) and I like to bend the leader back to make a hard crease so I know it's been exposed. Right when I bent it, it snapped and split apart clean. It tested it again on the broken off piece and it happened again. Had to be the cold making it brittle.

Temp swings affect film simple as that.

albada · Apr 3, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
Thanks Davedm.
I should read more slowly, or understand quicker !
Thats easier then, the two plastics used in the tubs have a different make up and probably the bottom contracted and squeezed the top off or vice versa....still a bit odd.
Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

As part of designing a developer, I have tested every non-C-41 film (in 35mm) made by Ilford. All were stored frozen. Never saw this. Never saw any evidence of outward pressure on the caps. Odd indeed.

Mark Overton

Simon R Galley · Apr 3, 2013

Dear NB23

As always, whatever works for you is cool ( excuse the pun ) with me.

In relation to 'advice' from manufacturers, it is actually our duty to our customers, those with perhaps less experience than 99% of APUGGERS that this site is for and may need some extra help and guidance in the best use of our products ( and I'm 100% sure its the same with KODAK and FUJI ) and other proven forms of good photo 'practice'.

We have tested and continue to test all kinds of parameters to ensure that customers who use our ILFORD brand of products and spend their hard earned money on get what they need and expect and of course, don't they deserve this? Our benefit is very simple, customers will use our products again, know that we value our customers and will value our brand and know that they have a resource to access to ensure that on-going 'satisfaction'.

If you think thats BS, that's absolutely your opinion and your right to hold it and share it and in this we shall agree to differ...

I also do not know if you are actually saying that you can get a cassette of film from -18 to 20 degrees in 15 seconds? I am pretty sure your not, because you certainly cannot even if you have the highest body temperature known to man !.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Ian Grant · Apr 3, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
The experienced 99% of APUGGERS should be reading the manufacturers' advice too!

they do know their products.

Ian

Roger Cole · Apr 3, 2013

15 seconds seems ridiculously short to me, though I can't argue with someone who says "works for me" in their particular situation. OTOH, film doesn't have the moisture content of, say, a chunk of steak and doesn't have to "thaw" in the same way. My rule of thumb has always been to be sure any visible condensation is gone and the film cartridge (for 35mm) or paper and spool (for 120) doesn't feel cooler than ambient. This will take longer than 15 seconds for most of us, but not hours either. Probably more like 15 minutes depending on ambient temperature and humidity.

For 4x5 I do wait longer because it's always wrapped inside the box. So far I've not had any problems with it either but the preparation I use for loading holders pretty much ensures I have to plan time for it anyway so film warming is just included - typically I take the film out earlier in the day when I plan to load holders that night.

NB23 · Apr 3, 2013

Well, the film canister being made of metal and being conductive, and being so small, it warms up in 10 seconds in my hands.
The film itself, the acetate or whatever plastic it is, really doesn't hold cold or heat.
Now we're down to the emulsion: Its thickness being measured in microns, it too can't hold moisture for more then a few seconds.

Arguing makes no sense. Just take out a roll of film in the freezer, hold it in your hand for
15 seconds then bring it to your cheek. Still cold? If still cold, wait 5 more seconds.

brianentz · Apr 4, 2013

Just checking back in again for a response. Looks like I'll be OK using the film. I'll process one roll and then evaluate before shooting the other three just to be sure. To address some earlier questions: the box was closed but out of the shrink wrap. All four canisters had the plastic tops popped off but the canisters metal end caps were secure. There are two different colors of plastic with the pan f and that may help account for the matter. Thanks for all the responses.

wblynch · Apr 6, 2013

Just because the can feels warm to your cheek the insides will still be quite cold.

I don't believe it has warmed within 15 seconds but once you've loaded that film, it is still warming and by the time you take your first shot it most likely has come up to full ambient temperature.

In the end, things are probably fine.

Roger Cole · Apr 6, 2013

I have film I've been trying to find time to develop for over six months. I refrigerate it unless I can get to it within a couple of weeks. Just not enough time.

StoneNYC · Apr 6, 2013

Is it a frost free freezer? if it is, then you shouldn't have any issues, if it's NOT frost free, I would shoot a roll and test it, if it's fine, then it's fine, the only concern is if moisture actually penetrated the can itself through the felt and then froze to the emulsion and then burst/cracked the emulsion and then you would have an issue but in the short time period you mentioned I very much doubt any issues could arise even if the freezer is not frost free it should be fine as the frost most likely would only have penetrated the top layer which will be exposed when you load the film in the camera anyway.

Bad Pan F ??

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