Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

[halfaman]

It was said that P30 is the photosensitive base of the slide film Ferrania intend to do. A pitty it didn't happen but what those crazy italians have acomplished is also remarkable.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm sure one day Ferrania will produce a slide film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I will continue to not hold my breathe.

 

[cmacd123]

It was said that P30 is the photosensitive base of the slide film Ferrania intend to do. A pitty it didn't happen but what those crazy italians have acomplished is also remarkable.

well, it presents all the packaging and converting challenges of a slide film. AND it does need all the translation of the formula to practice. the slide film is quite a bit more demanding to coat and manufacture, but the packaging (slit, perforate, load into rolls) would be similar.

 

[Helge]

Well, remember back in the day reasonably small manufacturers managed to make quite reputable clones of Kodaks slide film.
It's hard yes. But far from impossible. The most expensive thing is the machine, which Ferrania allegedly has. The rest is RnD and trial and error.
It's when you put strict professional grade demands on QC that things gets real hard.
Foma and the like survive regardless.

 

[cmacd123]

Well, remember back in the day reasonably small manufacturers managed to make quite reputable clones of Kodaks slide film.
It's hard yes. But far from impossible. .

which ones were those? there were a few medium size makers - including Ferrania at one point who used the Pre-war Agfa technology to make a colour slide film. Anscochrome would fall in there. Ilford did make a slide film similar to Kodachrone, and then ??? Fuji, Konica and 3M-Ferrania did make an E-6 film. as well as the ones from Kodak, but that is about it.

the color film that modern day Ferrania planned to make is based on the technology that was developed when the plant was owned by 3M, which is by no means a small company. 3M at one time was one of the top "drugstore film labs" under a dozen names, so they had many customers for Private Label film.

 

[mshchem]

Well Helge, digital imaging - especially the sales of digital cameras - was hit very hard last year. The sales numbers collapsed (and they are decreasing for about a decade now).
That is why I have written 'despite' the pandemic (and we all know that most business fields were and are hit by the pandemic).
So the encouraging signal for us film enthusiasts is that the film resurgence is demonstrating a strong robustness, a resilience.

And 'because of it': Yes, in certain smaller segments of the market. For example during the lockdown time film photography beginners had time to learn about film development at home. Sales of film processing equipment and photo chemicals increased disproportunately high.

Best regards,
Henning

Trying to earn a living as a photographer has clobbered equipment sales. I bought a X Pro 3 and a new Nikon zoom in November of 2019. I bought it at a friend's shop. He closed his business late last year, pandemic and not wanting to sign a long term lease. I don't have the talent (or social skills) to be a professional photographer. I think analog is pretty stable. That's the good news . For my retirement gift to myself I bought a new Jobo CPP3, Jobo is got to be doing very well. The machine is flawless.

 

[mshchem]

I'm sure one day Ferrania will produce a slide film.

What they have accomplished, with little money, and all the regulatory issues is still impressive.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

What they have accomplished, with little money, and all the regulatory issues is still impressive.

Agreed!

 

[mshchem]

I spent a week in Italy on business. What a wonderful experience. Near Milan, beautiful everything.

 

[alanrockwood]

I spent a week in Italy on business. What a wonderful experience. Near Milan, beautiful everything.

I spent a few days in Riva Del Garda for a scientific conference. As one of the conference organizers put it, the place is the most beautiful spot on earth, and he just might be right about that.

 

[alanrockwood]

which ones were those? there were a few medium size makers - including Ferrania at one point who used the Pre-war Agfa technology to make a colour slide film. Anscochrome would fall in there. Ilford did make a slide film similar to Kodachrone, and then ??? Fuji, Konica and 3M-Ferrania did make an E-6 film. as well as the ones from Kodak, but that is about it.

the color film that modern day Ferrania planned to make is based on the technology that was developed when the plant was owned by 3M, which is by no means a small company. 3M at one time was one of the top "drugstore film labs" under a dozen names, so they had many customers for Private Label film.

Didn't Ferrania or one of its predecessor companies or a company allied to one of its predecessor companies once make a film based on Kodachrome technology called Dynachrome?

 

[halfaman]

Didn't Ferrania or one of its predecessor companies or a company allied to one of its predecessor companies once make a film based on Kodachrome technology called Dynachrome?

Something like that, but Dynacolor slide film was discontinued 50 years ago. Not exactly yesterday news... "New" Ferrania was trying to start again the production of last 3M/Scotch ISO 100 slide film emulsion for E6 process.

 

[alanrockwood]

Something like that, but Dynacolor slide film was discontinued 50 years ago. Not exactly yesterday news... "New" Ferrania was trying to start again the production of last 3M/Scotch ISO 100 slide film emulsion for E6 process.

Here's a photo of an old box of Dynachrome film that I found on the web.

I actually shot a box or two of dynachrome back in 1969 or 1970.

 

[cmacd123]

Didn't Ferrania or one of its predecessor companies or a company allied to one of its predecessor companies once make a film based on Kodachrome technology called Dynachrome?

Dynachrome WAS a 3M product, but "made in USA" so it probably originated before 3M took over Ferrania. only used one roll of it in the 1960s, and it did have the raised apperence of a Kodachrome like film.

 

[twelvetone12]

IIRC PE in a post told the story of some Kodak employees leaving and opening their own factory to make a Kodachrome clone, but I can't recall the details and I can't find the post (so take it with a grain of salt!), and (again IIRC) the film was then sold by a competitor.
Somewhere I found a picture of "made in Italy" Kodachrome II-compatibile super8 film, maybe it was made by Ferrania? I will see if I can find the image again.

 

[foc]

According to https://www.filmkorn.org/super8data/

"Dynachrome is a unusual substractive reversal film as is Kodachrome or Ilfochrome, made by the Dynacolor Corporation (Rochester, New York), which was acquired by Minessota Mining & Manufacturing Co (3M) in 1963."

BUT it also says "Dynacolor Corp, Rochester, New York, USA in 1959 3M acquired Dynacolor Corp"

And https://www.filmrescue.com/premium-kodachrome-and-dynachrome-slide-scanning/

"When the Kodachrome patent ran out in the late 1950s, 3M copied the Kodachrome film and released “Dynachrome” which has most of the same characteristics and properties of Kodachrome"

So while the timeline can't be agreed, it does suggest that Ferrania did manufacture a Kodachrome clone, in still and cine.

 

[cmacd123]

So while the timeline can't be agreed, it does suggest that Ferrania did manufacture a Kodachrome clone, in still and cine.

or 3M made it in USA?

 

[Henning Serger]

I don't know how it correlates to the current situation but the price of film cameras and lenses have gone really up and in case of Olympus OM + Zuiko lenses it's gone up by a factor 2.
Gone are the days to get OM-1n body for €25.
Other day I have checked prices of Leica's from meister kamera. Wow nothing below four digits...

Prices of used film cameras are generally increasing for some years now because of the film revival = higher demand for film cameras. And that is indeed a good development.
Only 25€ for such a good camera like the OM-1n was a very bad sign, as the market demonstrates by such low prices that the camera is considered having a very low value.
Meanwhile fortunately such nice cameras got much more of the appreciation on the used market that they really deserve.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Yes, as I understand, color film has many more coats than B&W. I believe Fuji was making films with 36 layers of emulsion.

Well no, not 36 layers. Up to 18 / 20 layers (different numbers because of different sources).
But it is still quite a lot and a kind of "record number" for current standard colour photo films. And it is absolutely high-tech to produce such films, especially with a perfect QC (which is one of Fujifilm's strengths: best QC in the business).

It does explain why B&W films are so much more plentiful in terms of who is making them, but at the same time, I feel that having a new manufacturer doing color films would really be a great thing for the future of film seeing as it's just Kodak and Fuji now.

There are also Polaroid and InovisCoat producing colour films.

I also heard digital cameras aren't doing too well in sales.

You have expressed it diplomatically . Sales of digital cameras are in free fall. The sales are decreasing with rates of minus 20-30% every year, and that for about a decade now. Since 2010 the digital camera market has lost about 95% (!) of its volume. Dozens of Asian OEM digital (compact) camera manufacturers have quit this market, as well as big companies like Kodak (they were once market leader with their "Easyshare" digital cameras in North America), Epson, Casio and Samsung. And I would not be surprised if 1-2 of the remaining Japanese manufacturers will pull the plug in the next 3-5 years, because the decline in demand will continue for another 3-5 years before it hit the bottom and stabilizes on an extremely low level.

The factors contributing to that won't work the same for film cameras, I think. And that is good news for us. And it does seem that supply & demand for film cameras is changing as we see the prices go up, but I don't think it's shifted enough to make it worthwhile for people to manufacture new film cameras.

Well, not yet. But it will come. With the collapsing digital camera market, the strong increase in demand for film cameras and increasing prices for used film cameras the point will come when it is attractive again for camera manufacturers to produce film cameras.
And don't forget that the most popular (highest sales numbers) photo camera type is already for quite some time a film camera type: Fujifilm instax.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

It was said that P30 is the photosensitive base of the slide film Ferrania intend to do.

It is definitely not. As someone who has tested the P30 intensively I can ensure you that.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

It's hard yes. But far from impossible. The most expensive thing is the machine, which Ferrania allegedly has. The rest is RnD and trial and error.
It's when you put strict professional grade demands on QC that things gets real hard.

Helge, you are yet underestimating the challenges. I have visited Film Ferrania and other film manufacturers (including colour film manufacturers) and talked to the chemists and engineers.
There are so much complex problems to be solved, on many different levels, that production of a new colour film is really a huge challenge and adventure. Especially for such very small companies like Film Ferrania.
And especially now in the Pandemic, which has severe negative impacts on the supply chain and production side. I know that some projects (new products) in the industry have got really heavy setbacks because of the Pandemic. Whether they can recover from these heavy setbacks is completely open at this time point.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Minolta93]

Well no, not 36 layers. Up to 18 / 20 layers (different numbers because of different sources).
But it is still quite a lot and a kind of "record number" for current standard colour photo films.

Don't know where I heard the 36 number from, I could have sworn I did. Either way, there are quite a few layers.

There are also Polaroid and InovisCoat producing colour films.

I forgot Polaroid. I remember hearing about InnovisCoat but thought they had stopped. What labels do they sell their film under? As for Polaroid, I'm glad that those guys were able to get it back off the ground, but also from what I've seen the quality is vastly inferior to Instax--the colors, image quality, and holding up over time. Not to mention it's a lot more expensive. Although if I had the money, I'd still shoot it anyway, of course.

You have expressed it diplomatically

I certainly tried to. Let's just say my original text was going to be less diplomatic...

Well, not yet. But it will come. With the collapsing digital camera market, the strong increase in demand for film cameras and increasing prices for used film cameras the point will come when it is attractive again for camera manufacturers to produce film cameras.
And don't forget that the most popular (highest sales numbers) photo camera type is already for quite some time a film camera type: Fujifilm instax.

I figured it'll start happening sometime soon. You're right, at some point the supply and demand will change up to the point where someone will start production once again. And in fact there is some production already going on anyway, just of course not of things like SLRs.

I knew Instax was popular. I had no idea it was that popular! I'm hoping to get one myself at some point. Right now I'm a bit occupied with a box of cameras I've gotten, though. Working through a roll on a c. 1958 Contina camera at the moment. I don't quite trust the lightmeter, so I've just been eyeballing it based on the exposure guide for the film I'm using. It's quite fun. The Instax will have to wait.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

Helge, you are yet underestimating the challenges. I have visited Film Ferrania and other film manufacturers (including colour film manufacturers) and talked to the chemists and engineers.
There are so much complex problems to be solved, on many different levels, that production of a new colour film is really a huge challenge and adventure. Especially for such very small companies like Film Ferrania.
And especially now in the Pandemic, which has severe negative impacts on the supply chain and production side. I know that some projects (new products) in the industry have got really heavy setbacks because of the Pandemic. Whether they can recover from these heavy setbacks is completely open at this time point.

Best regards,
Henning

Could you elaborate on some of these projects/products?

 

[Helge]

Helge, you are yet underestimating the challenges. I have visited Film Ferrania and other film manufacturers (including colour film manufacturers) and talked to the chemists and engineers.
There are so much complex problems to be solved, on many different levels, that production of a new colour film is really a huge challenge and adventure. Especially for such very small companies like Film Ferrania.
And especially now in the Pandemic, which has severe negative impacts on the supply chain and production side. I know that some projects (new products) in the industry have got really heavy setbacks because of the Pandemic. Whether they can recover from these heavy setbacks is completely open at this time point.

Best regards,
Henning

Isn’t that covered by “It’s hard yes”? ;-)

There is however a quite a gab between RnDing and manufacturing a fun amateur film (with “Polaroid” being an extreme, and perhaps bad example) and manufacturing something like Ektachrome, that is going to be used by pros, expecting not to throw expensive trips, model money and clients personal experiences down the drain, or have it turn out less than perfect.

Ferrania has a lot more leash than Kodak or Fuji.
That’s a good and a bad thing.

I’m not downplaying their challenges. They are probably working on, or at least thinking about film night and day.
And putting and enormous amount of energy and expertise into making film. Colour or B&W.
I’m merely saying that it’s not impossible to do slide. As it might well appear, if you are familiar with the complexity of film and production of it.
People of lesser means and experience has done it before.