Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

It's patronage, back something that you hope to succeed. Sometimes it goes well and you get invited to the party for treats and a cash bar.

As long as Kodak and Fuji are alive and well no way these guys can bring a color film to market, even at $50/roll they lose money.

Hopefully some of the factory stays intact. Italy is a tricky place to do business, hard to terminate a full-time employee once hired.

I wish them well.

tih said:

Yeah, they were overly optimistic at the start. Almost daring Fate to kick their butts - and she did. Still, that doesn't change the basic nature of a Kickstarter project. You do not purchase a good; you donate money to a project, and the people running that project have a moral obligation to do their honest best to reward you for doing so. As previously explained, the Ferrania folks have done, and are doing, their bit. The originally offered reward never materialized, and thus couldn't be given, so they did what the Kickstarter rules says they should do, and worked out another way to reward their supporters.

I think I'm most intrigued by the relative scale of things, here: we have this little team of enthusiasts in Italy who are investing years of effort to build a working film factory, and, little by little, succeeding - and then we have all these people whining "boo hoo, I threw a few dollars in the kitty, and I haven't gotten what I wanted out of it yet".

Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean they literally said "We want to be clear that backing this project is not simply pre-purchasing film before its release". So if anyone had the expectation otherwise, that's on them.

Yeah, whatever. Have they produced film? Yes. Where'

tih said:

I think you've forgotten some details...

The original reward was to be color reversal film. This was offered because they had the chemicals all ready, and saw an opportunity for doing an early run of that product, using their lab equipment instead of the actual production machines we all chipped in to help save. The schedule for doing that broke - there were delays that went on until those chemicals could no longer be used.

So, back in February 2017, when the first rolls of P30 were made, every backer got an email offering them P30 instead of the originally promised film. Those who decided to go for that got discount vouchers for the Ferrania web shop, if memory serves.

I chose not to take them up on that offer. I'm still rooting for the Ferrania crew, hoping that they in the future will be producing both color and b/w film in several formats - and that I'll be able to display one of their first rolls of color reversal film, in its unopened packaging, on a suitable shelf in my living room.

Click to expand...

I made the same decision. However since then, their stated strategy has been converting kickstarter accounts into accounts in their online shop and then offering credit. They've claimed that this is a difficult IT issue. So far, as best as I know, that hasn't happened and they've been completely non-communicative.

abruzzi said:

The thing to understand about ALL kickstarters--you are not guaranteed the "rewards". It doesn't really matter whether Ferrania made that clear or not--that is the terms of any donation to any kickstarter project. If you're not comfortable with that, I suggest doing what I do--wait untill it is an item in a store and buy it.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, I understand the inherent risks of a kickstarter and I'm fine with them. I've backed at least one that I recall that completely failed and I was able to accept that. Where they've lost me as a sympathetic person is that their communication has been awful and they have produced film. They've had challenges, sure. But they haven't failed. I can got to Freestyle's website and buy some this second. So I'd like them to issue the credit that they announced years ago.

tih said:

I think I'm most intrigued by the relative scale of things, here: we have this little team of enthusiasts in Italy who are investing years of effort to build a working film factory, and, little by little, succeeding - and then we have all these people whining "boo hoo, I threw a few dollars in the kitty, and I haven't gotten what I wanted out of it yet".

Click to expand...

I just don't see it this way. They willfully entered into a reciprocal relationship with several thousand people and have completely failed to honor it. For a while they were attempting to keep people in the loop, but for the past several years their attitude has been a silent and implicit 'va f'an in culo.'

I also object to the term donation. I make donations all the time to things I believe in, I don't donate to private enterprises. I see Kickstarter as more of an investment.

Anyway, sorry for stirring the pot, I saw the thread, hoped there might be some new info in it. Got sucked in.

Mogens said:

...I also object to the term donation. I make donations all the time to things I believe in, I don't donate to private enterprises. I see Kickstarter as more of an investment...

Click to expand...

I usually stay of of threads like this one, but cannot resist replying to that. Your "objection" is baseless. No matter what you perceive Kickstarter to be, if you sent funds to the private enterprise Film Ferrania as part of its effort on that platform, you made a donation, not an "investment." You are not entitled to any protections afforded "investors" in real instruments, meager though those might be.

It's time for all the whiners in this and similar threads to suck it up and stop complaining. You threw money at a project and the results are what they are. Were I associated with Film Ferrania, I wouldn't "communicate" here either.

Mogens said:

I just don't see it this way. They willfully entered into a reciprocal relationship with several thousand people and have completely failed to honor it. For a while they were attempting to keep people in the loop, but for the past several years their attitude has been a silent and implicit 'va f'an in culo.'

I also object to the term donation. I make donations all the time to things I believe in, I don't donate to private enterprises. I see Kickstarter as more of an investment.

Anyway, sorry for stirring the pot, I saw the thread, hoped there might be some new info in it. Got sucked in.

Click to expand...

I don`t know if you have followed topics like this thread (and others about Ferrania), but even in this thread Ferrania still did answer at the start - iirc. But again and again people came up, calling them fraud and everything because they had not yet received their color film - not understanding about Kickstarter and the problems Ferrania had to face.
This also is the reason why some now are fed up with another one, who does not seem to understand Kickstarter. But from your answers i conclude that you basically understand Kickstarter, but that you are discontent about communication of Ferrania. Well, one reason for Ferrania no longer communicating is that they got a lot of bashing
- also because they once announced the start of their web-shop, but then had to shift start of the web-shob because of IT problems or else but several did not want to accept this -
and the other reason i think was that they had to move all the adresses and emails to another server or what; back then they sent emails to everyone asking whether this email adress still is latest or they also called in topics like this to send them an email to confirm current adresses etc. .
You may have missed this, it was years ago, or your adress might have gotten lost, but Ferrania really did try to give everyone the possibility to change their color-film-reward into P30 or postcards or whatever.

If your adress and your donation have been lost i`m sure Ferrania will help you to get a reward, no color film at the moment of course, as they really have been trying to fulfill their obligation towards their backers - and they already did so years ago when it got clear that color film will not happen soon.
...

Latest info is that they (nearly?) managed to produce 135 film in-house, therefore being independent from other companies cutting or boxing P30 for them - and the next goal is to produce P30 in 120. But as they got a lot of bashing, they only will communicate on things being 150% sure and safe - so there is silence to be expected until they were able to do the next step.

Edit:
And yes, quite some bakers did get something.
Next time, if you`re just looking for new information, it might be helpful to ask just for that - and not somewhat question the commitment of a manufacturer who has been working itself to the bone for years, facing obstacles where others had given up years ago.
I`m just saying so to make you understand the reactions towards your posts. No offense intended.

I couldn't say better, thank you !

and I did buy 10 rolls of the latest anounced batch of P30 . and they do seem to be a Ferrania in House production. they came in the style of Plastic Cans that match previous 3M manufactured film (I bought Arista Film for colour prints in teh past, and the shape of the cans is the same.) Looking closely at the edge printing, it does say FERRANIA P30 with the ferrania in the typeface that is on the box (Circa 1960) and also has the "F" man logo on the edge print... and the cassettes were also "retro" styled with replaceable end caps. AND are now DX coded as ISO 80. {both distinct form any other current film, impling that they are indeed producing them in House) SO they seem to have managed to produce the 4000 rolls that they claimed when the released the Latest batch. Each roll comes with a bar code sticker, to allow tracing back the production details, and the HEX number on the ones I received translates to the High 3000s in decimal.

Yes, I would LOVE to see 120, I would also LOVE to see other films in teh former Ferrania Line Like P33, which in the olden days was much easier to tame.

P30 was shown in stock when I looked at B&H and at Freestyle, ar arround 13 dollars US a roll, which is actually close to other brands these days. so if you are curious BUY some.

I am still expecting that they will keep the last promise of issuing credits equal to the original pledges in order to the original backers for the dollar amount of the pledges - ONCE they get the web store fully stocked, and good start flowing in quantity.

and finaly, I agree that the negativity shown here has resulted in the firm NOT wanting to say anthing in advance, (because deadlines tend to slip when you are a miniscule High Tech manufacturing company - I am not sure who is smaller Ferrania or ADOX.DE) and also not being willing to post here.

I just shot a roll earlier in the week. EI 10-20. It really has me wanting it in 120. Can't wait!

I contacted Ferrania, asking about P30 in 120. They said that they are working on it as we speak, but don't have a solid release window yet.
I hope it's on shelves by the Fall!

I'll buy it in 120. I have three rolls of the 35mm film left but I'd really like to see this in 120. I know it's the next target after in-house production of 135 P30.

I'd also really love to see P30 in 8mm film format, though I doubt that is on the cards.

Agulliver said:

I'd also really love to see P30 in 8mm film format, though I doubt that is on the cards.

Click to expand...

at the time of the Kickstarter, the kolks did metion that one of the two was a movie fan who owned a Movie Lab in Italy and wanted to have fresh 16mm reversal film available. P30 WAS originaly made in 16mm (as Negative) so it is quite possible that they have a R8 Perforating machine. Unless they start making and perforating some print film though they would need to work on a reversal film. (the original plan was to make Scotch Chrome 100, which would work well as a FAST Regular 8 Film.)

On second thought, I guess that given that folks often scan film anyway, that regular 8 Negative might still be useful,

I don't like the business model of Kick Starter, so I have never "donated" anything to them. Its not a donation in my mind, its a gamble w/ no guarantee of a return. If it were a donation you could deduct it on your income taxes. You can't make a "donation" on 7 come 11 on a Vegas crap table and try to deduct that as a deduction if you lose your "investment".

Well, actually you can, but you have to keep studious records, and who would be willing to tell the IRS about their gambling? That might prompt them to get real nosy. The dealers usually frown on anyone writing anything down in a casino anyway. Besides, you can only deduct the losses if you tell them of your winnings, in which case the tax on that is surely much more than your tax deduction. It's a sucker's bet.

Maybe its just me, but if I had a valid idea to make a product and the equipment to make what the idea was about (or needed funds to get the equipment) I would go to private investors rather than getting strangers to send me money online based on a possible future product. Those investors are out there. I've made plenty of mistakes w/ money myself, but one learns, you know? As long as someone is willing to gamble their money, then sure, there is no guarantee of anything. Other than one person suddenly has a smaller stash and the other entity now has a bigger stash.

If someone invested/gambled in or on a product and the funds are diverted to something else like a store credit, while that may sound better than getting nothing, it also does not sound legal.

Lots of people bashing Ferrania, but they are still kicking along, despite Italian politics getting in the way and Covid, perhaps they were too optimistic at first, but here we are almost 10 years later after they became a thing, and they are still here producing film.
People dont realise that there is alot involved in making film and there was alot of work involved in starting up mothballed equipment that has not been used in some years.
P30 is a great B&W film with high contrast and offers a new product to the table.
Its correct that they are working on 120 film and have all the equipment ready to produce this format, it wont be long before we see this available.
And on top of that, they are working behind the scenes to get colour film ready, so I think it wont be long before we see some film available. I wouldnt be surprised if Kickstarter backers are given the opportunity to test some beta pre-release films before it goes to the market.

I can think of a couple of differences between Kickstarter and "norma" start up investments. One positive and proably one negative.

the Kickstarter "Investors" are chipping in to get something that they see as something that SHOULD happen. with luck they may get a reward, they get the feel good that they are "Helping" an idea that they like, BUT they at the end of the day get no equity or shares in the company. No claim if it is unsuccessful, and no further involvement necessarily offered by the project starters.

If one goes for the venture capital route, where some individual or firm Kicks in the money needed, (in this case they wanted 1/2 million, and should have asked for three times that at least.) the person providing the money will want a large percentage of the Stock in the company. that is a permanent drag, until they are successful, when the stock will be sold off, perhaps to another company that wants to adsorb the company or shut it down as a competitor. this is why that is sometimes referred to as Vulture Capital. if the investment is not doing as well as expected the venture capitalists will likely push to have the start up declare bankruptcy so the vulture can have a tax loss. since they are thinking short turm, they want to have big sucess or a write off in a short time. even if it does not come to that, they will likly want to push out the management to have bean couters run the firm.

Remember "Schroder Ventures" AKA Permira Funds, who bought a stake in Feranai in 2003. 3M sold the entire IMATION "photo colour systems" busness including the Ferrania campus to them in 1999. Shutting that down was the reason Film Ferrannia had the oportunity to buy some of the 3M equipment and take up residence in the LRF.

Schroder Ventures is also one of the companies who were trying to take over AGFA photo, and we know how well that eventually worked out.


ONE really good thing about the Kickstarter process, and I suspect that this may be the reason we have got this far is that it shows that 5,582 backers pledged $322,420 to help bring this project to life. That is a solid showing of INTERST in the product, and may have been as imprtant as the money in allowing these folks to be granted the opportunity to buy the machinery - rather than seeing it crushed and dragged off to a scrap yard.

Reading some of the atricles I looked up for the above post, when Imation sold it, there were 1300 folks working at Ferrannia, most of the time in the past while it looks like there were about 100th of that. Mind you the Big Coating building used to also make Magnetic tape, and quite likely also coated the media used into floppy discs.

cmacd123 said:

Reading some of the atricles I looked up for the above post, when Imation sold it, there were 1300 folks working at Ferrannia, most of the time in the past while it looks like there were about 100th of that. Mind you the Big Coating building used to also make Magnetic tape, and quite likely also coated the media used into floppy discs.

Click to expand...

wow, thats interesting to learn.
I wonder how they managed to coat paper, film and magnetic tape on the same equipment? Contamination from paper dust would have been a major issue too and then having to clean out the chemicals from each batch would have been difficult. Magnetic tape uses metal oxide particles and also requires a series of high pressure rollers at the end so im surprised they were able to do that on the same coater.
Also lots of solvents were used for magnetic tapes.

I would guess that the Coating building would have had more than one "coating line"

Ilford manages to coat both film and paper on the one coating line.

Kodak and others do say they can do "solvent coating" - Mind you recording tape often has a Polyurethane binder, something like a varnish, and so it may not have had Much solvents to control.

if you look at the History document that film ferania posted, the Purchase of Ferrannia in 1964 was because 3M, who already made recording tape and photographic film (Dynachrome for example) , (and sandpaper and adhesive tape) thought that the Italian Plant had better coating technology.


this vendor in teh US sells old stock recording tape and has a bunch of this tape which was made by Ferrannia https://reeltoreelwarehouse.com/product/scotch-215-superlife-reel-tape-lp-7-reel-1800-ft-new-nos/

Nzoomed said:

Magnetic tape uses metal oxide particles and also requires a series of high pressure rollers at the end so im surprised they were able to do that on the same coater.

Click to expand...

the tape could have been rolled off on master rolls and sent to another building to have the calendaring and polishing required.

Im not too sure, I thought it only had one coater in there from what I was aware.
Dave Bias can probably fill us in more on that. Perhaps 3M did have another building where that was done on the tape, but I thought it had to be done before its rolled back onto itself.

cmacd123 said:

the original plan was to make Scotch Chrome 100, which would work well as a FAST Regular 8 Film.

regular 8 Negative might still be useful

Click to expand...

The 8mm market was based on a film sensitivity of ISO 10 to 40. In the heydays with, for example, Adox U 17 as a very finely grained stock you could count on a good picture when projected three by four feet.

There are enough ISO 100 and faster films on the market, Fomapan R, Orwo UN 54, Orwo N 100, Ektachrome 100 D, Vision 3 negatives. What’s really needed are virtually grainless products that reveal the quality of lenses. Different from smartphones many 8mm and 9.5mm cameras allow to change lenses and interesting wide-angle or tele lenses can be had today for small money.

Film Ferrania could grab the entire 9.5mm market with a suitable film that they send to France in 35 mm width unperforated. It takes so little to do that, three long rolls for free to start the motor. Around 50 camera makes are known for 9.5mm film and some 100 types of projectors. They are distributed worldwide.

I have a Paillard-Bolex H-9, a Beaulieu Reflex 9.5, a Miller B De Luxe, two Pathé Rio, a GIC 9.5 camera, and a GIC 9.5 projector.

In 8mm I should buy Adox CMS 20.

cmacd123 said:

at the time of the Kickstarter, the kolks did metion that one of the two was a movie fan who owned a Movie Lab in Italy and wanted to have fresh 16mm reversal film available. P30 WAS originaly made in 16mm (as Negative) so it is quite possible that they have a R8 Perforating machine. Unless they start making and perforating some print film though they would need to work on a reversal film. (the original plan was to make Scotch Chrome 100, which would work well as a FAST Regular 8 Film.)

On second thought, I guess that given that folks often scan film anyway, that regular 8 Negative might still be useful,

Click to expand...

One thing about P30 is that if one develops oneself, it could be shot at anything from ISO 10-100 and processed accordingly as B&W negative. There have been people successfully performing reversal processing on it too. I've got several 8mm cameras with either manual exposure settings, or meters that can be set to *at least* a range of 10-100ASA (some go up to 400). P30 could be quite handy in such a camera, and unlike Fomapan R100 can be processed as negative - indeed is intended to be. In 135, the grain is pretty much invisible so it would be a nice film in 8mm. Even better in 16mm. Whether they have the capacity to do it, and where it might be on their list of priorities is anyone's guess. I'd suspect it's low down the list, but would be delighted to be proved wrong. I'm purely an amateur who still "messes about" with the stuff but I've had fun processing myself and scanning with one of the cheap scanners. I've used ORWO N74 too (under the Kahl Film brand) but that doesn't seem to be available in 8mm any more.

As for Kickstarter. It really doesn't matter a fig what a few posters personally like to think it is. It is a donation. But not to a charity. I don't know why people keep needing to point this out. Maybe I should personally think of General Motors as a charity and demand a new Corvette for $5.

The landscape has changed since Film Ferrania started all this. The original idea was that no colour reversal movie film existed at all after Kodak axed Ektachrome, and Fuji looked likely to axe at least some of their E6 still film. So there was a gap they could slot into making medium speed colour reversal film for the E6 process in multiple formats including super 8 and 16mm as well as 135 and 120. Since then, Fuji has sought to stabilise production of it's E6 still films and Kodak has reintroduced Ektachrome across several formats. While colour reversal film may well still be their goal, it's not going to be the obvious corner of the market for them any more. P30 was a happy accident that occurred on the way to making colour film. And it does have a place in the market as it's quite unlike other B&W negative films. When available, it sells and those who like it want to see it in 120 and other formats. I like it, though not as an every day film. Others don't like it, and that's cool. Nobody is forced to use it, thankfully there's still a lot of choice available. What they do next after mastering 135 and 120 is unknown. I think I recall 127 being a possibility but that market must be very small and for now Rerapan and Shanghai cater to it well. Maybe the movie formats are on the cards, std 8mm being easier than super 8 as it doesn't need a cartridge though I can shoot both I find std 8 easier to develop.

AFAIK building H had more than one coating line. There is a video on YouTube where they are coating inkjet paper and film.

twelvetone12 said:

AFAIK building H had more than one coating line. There is a video on YouTube where they are coating inkjet paper and film.

Click to expand...

Yes Ive seen that video, it also shows them coating film afterwards before they turn the lights off, i just assumed it was the same coater and they just switched between products.