Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

MamiyaBronica · Apr 2, 2022

And the beat goes on...and on and on. As hopeful as I was, contributed to the Kickstarter, immediately afterwards they admitted that the raw materials they found were not usable even if they could set up and get the coating/confection gear working. That gave me a sinking feeling.

My dad always felt that with 3M, Ferrania had a chance to beat Agfa. He believed the engineering and the know-how was there to create a film and processing product that was superior to what Agfa was putting out in the 1980s.

I, myself, was definitely looking back with rose coloured glasses, but the fondness dropped away when I began to remember how weird some of the 3M/Scotch emulsions were. There was an ISO1000 film that just couldn't compete with Konika's almost unbelievably saturated high speed negative film. I remember a lot of grainy, fading films from the 3M catalogue, but since I was getting all of it at Zellers and Sears so cheaply, it didn't seem to matter at the time for me as a kid.

Hopefully one day something can be made of it. Maybe some research, or some other application of the technology?

Burninfilm · Apr 3, 2022

The word “donate” or “donation” doesn’t even appear in the Kickstarter Terms & Conditions. There is, however, this statement:

“There are projects that will be unsuitable for Kickstarter and won’t be permitted to launch. For example, you can’t create a campaign solely to raise money for yourself or for a charity. A project must be producing an original creative work that a creator can share with their backers in some way.”

And this one:

“When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.”

Anyway, the terms of use do very clearly discuss how funds are meant to be used to create something that can be delivered to backers.

I totally agree that Kickstarter is never a sure thing and there is always risk. However, Ferrania never said “hey, this is a super complicated and crazy ambitious project with lots of opportunity for delays and failure”… instead they laid out their campaign on a foundation of:

”If you help us meet our goal, you get the first batch of film.
It’s that simple.”

And

“We already have everything we need to make the film”

And

“The only risk is not reaching our goal.”

And

“Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above. “

So no, this was not a campaign where they were very realistic about the inherent risk of the project… at least how it was proposed to backers trying to evaluate this risk of backing versus the possibility of never receiving anything physical in return for the pledge money. They went out of their way to state the opposite… that there was no risk.

If indeed the Kickstarter money was solely to purchase machinery, I suppose this would be a violation of the Kickstarter terms. Ferrania wasn’t just buying machinery though, were they? They were obligated to make something new and send it out as a reward to their backers.

All the little details don’t add up well, though, when you really start reading through and thinking about everything. For instance, 4 film formats in color slide film in 6-7 months? Here we are 8 years later and there are still challenges getting far simpler (comparatively… still a complicated and dificult to produce product) B&W negative film into just 35mm cassettes?

This is not a criticism on the enormity of their project. Just pointing out they may not have had everything they needed to produce the film. They would have needed a functioning film conversion line for 35mm, 120, Super 8, and 16mm. They still do not have this.

So, in short, I can see how some people have negative opinions and/or disappointment of Ferrania and how their Kickstarter campaign and obligations have worked out. It’s reasonable for people to feel that way. Maybe others don’t agree, and are still positive about Ferrania. That’s cool too. I personally don’t think they are scammers. That’s an awful lot of work for a group of people to go through for the amount of $$$ the Kickstarter brought in. LOL.

foc · Apr 3, 2022

Burninfilm said:
The word “donate” or “donation” doesn’t even appear in the Kickstarter Terms & Conditions. There is, however, this statement:

“There are projects that will be unsuitable for Kickstarter and won’t be permitted to launch. For example, you can’t create a campaign solely to raise money for yourself or for a charity. A project must be producing an original creative work that a creator can share with their backers in some way.”

And this one:

“When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.”

Anyway, the terms of use do very clearly discuss how funds are meant to be used to create something that can be delivered to backers.

I totally agree that Kickstarter is never a sure thing and there is always risk. However, Ferrania never said “hey, this is a super complicated and crazy ambitious project with lots of opportunity for delays and failure”… instead they laid out their campaign on a foundation of:

”If you help us meet our goal, you get the first batch of film.
It’s that simple.”

And

“We already have everything we need to make the film”

And

“The only risk is not reaching our goal.”

And

“Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above. “

So no, this was not a campaign where they were very realistic about the inherent risk of the project… at least how it was proposed to backers trying to evaluate this risk of backing versus the possibility of never receiving anything physical in return for the pledge money. They went out of their way to state the opposite… that there was no risk.

If indeed the Kickstarter money was solely to purchase machinery, I suppose this would be a violation of the Kickstarter terms. Ferrania wasn’t just buying machinery though, were they? They were obligated to make something new and send it out as a reward to their backers.

All the little details don’t add up well, though, when you really start reading through and thinking about everything. For instance, 4 film formats in color slide film in 6-7 months? Here we are 8 years later and there are still challenges getting far simpler (comparatively… still a complicated and dificult to produce product) B&W negative film into just 35mm cassettes?

This is not a criticism on the enormity of their project. Just pointing out they may not have had everything they needed to produce the film. They would have needed a functioning film conversion line for 35mm, 120, Super 8, and 16mm. They still do not have this.

So, in short, I can see how some people have negative opinions and/or disappointment of Ferrania and how their Kickstarter campaign and obligations have worked out. It’s reasonable for people to feel that way. Maybe others don’t agree, and are still positive about Ferrania. That’s cool too. I personally don’t think they are scammers. That’s an awful lot of work for a group of people to go through for the amount of $$$ the Kickstarter brought in. LOL.

Very well said. I think it sums up the situation as I understand it.

My heart wants them to succeed.

My head thinks they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

railwayman3 · Apr 3, 2022

A very fair summary, Burninfllm.

It also occurs to me that, to produce the different types of film which they suggested that they were ready to offer (not just the freebies, but in sufficient quantity to sell as a finished product and therefore generate profit and further investment....35mm, 120, super 8 and 16mm), they would have needed not only chemical supplies, knowhow, staff, and functioning emulsion and coating machinery in good order to coat colour film of consistent quaiity, but probably also different types and thickness of film base or anti-halation for the different products.

Add to that necessary supplies of 35mm cassettes, 120 film spools, backing paper, super-8 cassettes (complicated plastic mouldings?) 16mm spools and cans, packing cartons and printing. if they couldn't manufacture all these in house ?

It makes the manufacture of one type and size of B&W film look an achievement ! Maybe we Kickstart contibutors would now feel that this would have been a more realistic target ?

Nzoomed · Apr 3, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
What would happen if they allowed the sale of P.30 reels?
How many photographers here in this forum will buy from them in order to save some money?
If their prices are acceptable and competitive, many photographers around the world will definitely buy from them.
Foma does it and so does ORWO.
If they do this, they will definitely generate a large amount of sales and profits, and therefore they will be able to spend on research, laboratory experiments, and so on.
These are just simple ideas but they will be very motivating.

I believe that there was talk about them doing this once they had ramped up enough production.

faberryman said:
If, if, if...

Film Ferrania's spokesperson's last post was on January 23, 2020. That is also the date he last visited the forum.

He contacted me by email almost exactly a year ago about my account with film ferrania, so he was still involved as far back as at least early 2021, i expect he is still involved.

MamiyaBronica said:
And the beat goes on...and on and on. As hopeful as I was, contributed to the Kickstarter, immediately afterwards they admitted that the raw materials they found were not usable even if they could set up and get the coating/confection gear working. That gave me a sinking feeling.

My dad always felt that with 3M, Ferrania had a chance to beat Agfa. He believed the engineering and the know-how was there to create a film and processing product that was superior to what Agfa was putting out in the 1980s.

I, myself, was definitely looking back with rose coloured glasses, but the fondness dropped away when I began to remember how weird some of the 3M/Scotch emulsions were. There was an ISO1000 film that just couldn't compete with Konika's almost unbelievably saturated high speed negative film. I remember a lot of grainy, fading films from the 3M catalogue, but since I was getting all of it at Zellers and Sears so cheaply, it didn't seem to matter at the time for me as a kid.

Hopefully one day something can be made of it. Maybe some research, or some other application of the technology?

That wasnt too much concern for me, but I could see it would cause delays, I think they realised there was so much more work to be done and TBH, that was probably their least significant issue to deal with, they were still having to clean up the coater and get that working, and get other equipment up and running that had not been running for years.

They described the process to purify the chemicals and they have all the gear to do that, who knows, perhaps they have already done this in their absence?

faberryman · Apr 3, 2022

Nzoomed said:
They described the process to purify the chemicals and they have all the gear to do that, who knows, perhaps they have already done this in their absence?

Who knows, perhaps they will issue a press release on Monday saying that they have a warehouse full of P30 in 35mm and 120, and they will be selling it for $1.99/roll with free postage. Hope springs eternal.

I wish them the best and hope that they will succeed. I just think it is important to keep expectations realistic.

mohmad khatab · Apr 3, 2022

Nzoomed said:
I believe that there was talk about them doing this once they had ramped up enough production.

Do you have any information about when this will happen - can you put that to them?

Nzoomed · Apr 4, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
Do you have any information about when this will happen - can you put that to them?

No idea, but im pretty sure I read it in one of Dave's posts here on this forum, it was definitely something that he was asked.

cmacd123 · Apr 4, 2022

Burninfilm said:
“We already have everything we need to make the film”

This is not a criticism on the enormity of their project. Just pointing out they may not have had everything they needed to produce the film. They would have needed a functioning film conversion line for 35mm, 120, Super 8, and 16mm.

My understanding was they were under the impression that they would have time to do several things beofre they had to move the equipment. At the time they showed photos of both the high speed 35mm converting line, and a 120 converting machine that was just as it was when the last batch of 120 had been run, even the spool hopper was full of spools. The project implied that they were going to make one batch, and then start gathering and moving equipment.

that converting equipment would have been capable of spooling all the 35mm on the kickstarter in a good afternoon. same with the 120 machine.

AS it happened, they lost the supply of steam, and lab grade water, and had to go into scramble mode to reinstall and move equipment almost on the first week they got into the building. It took a while to get steam and electricity back, and by then the batch of chemicals that they had started to prepare went stale.

I am not there so I don't know if their is "More of the Story"

Major thing I have trouble understanding is why they though they could pull off the plan with such a small amount of money. a half million is chump change in an industry like this. 2 or 3 million US would be my expectation of the minimum to get things set up - even if the machinery were to be transferred at NO charge.

mohmad khatab · Apr 5, 2022

cmacd123 said:
Major thing I have trouble understanding is why they though they could pull off the plan with such a small amount of money. a half million is chump change in an industry like this. 2 or 3 million US would be my expectation of the minimum to get things set up - even if the machinery were to be transferred at NO charge.

You do not know the Italians, we Egyptians know them well. They lived in our country for a long period of time (the days of the Egyptian Kingdom) and worked in all engineering and mechanical handicrafts.
They are really good at rationalizing spending and finding good alternatives to expensive things.
My father learned from them many methods of organizing life in general and organizing business in particular.
They really do have amazing innate talents regarding these aspects.

So, if (the project) should cost 3 million, I wouldn't be surprised if the Italians did it for only half a million.

Ernst-Jan · Apr 5, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
So, if (the project) should cost 3 million, I wouldn't be surprised if the Italians did it for only half a million.

Well, I also know Italians... They sold high speed trains to the Dutch railways. The company never built those trains before.
Short summary: they were only in service for a couple of months because they were failing and falling in pieces. But I must say that these day the train run in Italy after years of overhaul, but I don't know how they perform compared to Siemens or Alstom high speed trains.

Anyhow, I wouldn't call them organised

mohmad khatab · Apr 5, 2022

Ernst-Jan said:
Well, I also know Italians... They sold high speed trains to the Dutch railways. The company never built those trains before.
Short summary: they were only in service for a couple of months because they were failing and falling in pieces. But I must say that these day the train run in Italy after years of overhaul, but I don't know how they perform compared to Siemens or Alstom high speed trains.

Anyhow, I wouldn't call them organised

I'm sorry, my friend, to get into this discussion

Ernst-Jan · Apr 5, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
I'm sorry, my friend, to get into this discussion

I was just sharing experiences from northern Europe. Anyhow, they have a strong technical industry and some things they can make very good. But it is nice to have something to mock at.
For Ferania I wish them the best and I will hapily buy several rolls once they come at with something in 120.

twelvetone12 · Apr 5, 2022

mohmad khatab said:
You do not know the Italians, we Egyptians know them well. They lived in our country for a long period of time (the days of the Egyptian Kingdom) and worked in all engineering and mechanical handicrafts.
They are really good at rationalizing spending and finding good alternatives to expensive things.
My father learned from them many methods of organizing life in general and organizing business in particular.
They really do have amazing innate talents regarding these aspects.

So, if (the project) should cost 3 million, I wouldn't be surprised if the Italians did it for only half a million.

Sincerely I find these kind of sweep generalisations quite frankly insulting. Nobody here, including me and you, know what actually happening with Ferrania and if this is due to "Italians being Italians lol". Besides big project fiascos happen everywhere, just look at the Bombardier Twindexx, the new trains bough by the SBB here in Switzerland. They should have been ready in 2013 and arrived in 2021 and are riddled with performance and technical problems. And a joy to ride since the suspensions throw you out of your seat (quite literally) on curves. And they were made by Bombardier here in CH, not by lazy Italians taking a nap after lunch.
Pace e amore e mi trattengo a dire quello che penso.

Cholentpot · Apr 5, 2022

twelvetone12 said:
Sincerely I find these kind of sweep generalisations quite frankly insulting. Nobody here, including me and you, know what actually happening with Ferrania and if this is due to "Italians being Italians lol". Besides big project fiascos happen everywhere, just look at the Bombardier Twindexx, the new trains bough by the SBB here in Switzerland. They should have been ready in 2013 and arrived in 2021 and are riddled with performance and technical problems. And a joy to ride since the suspensions throw you out of your seat (quite literally) on curves. And they were made by Bombardier here in CH, not by lazy Italians taking a nap after lunch.
Pace e amore e mi trattengo a dire quello che penso.

Fix It Again Tony!

I kid, I kid...who builds the most awesome cars in the world?

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 5, 2022

Cholentpot said:
Fix It Again Tony!

I kid, I kid...who builds the most awesome cars in the world?

The Japanese. At least they make awesome cars that average Joe can afford.

pentaxuser · Apr 5, 2022

Isn't it a fact that all countries have a national mould assigned to them which is quite different from other countries and that automatically makes each citizen of that country basically the same in terms of all their human traits that the mould gives them, be that sense of humour, organisational skills etc ?

I have yet to work out what happens if a couple from one country conceive in a second but the baby is born in a third or equally confusing each parent is from a different country and the baby is born in a third

What is certain is that whoever controls the allocation of these moulds has some very difficult decisions to make

pentaxuser

mohmad khatab · Apr 5, 2022

twelvetone12 said:
Sincerely I find these kind of sweep generalisations quite frankly insulting. Nobody here, including me and you, know what actually happening with Ferrania and if this is due to "Italians being Italians lol". Besides big project fiascos happen everywhere, just look at the Bombardier Twindexx, the new trains bough by the SBB here in Switzerland. They should have been ready in 2013 and arrived in 2021 and are riddled with performance and technical problems. And a joy to ride since the suspensions throw you out of your seat (quite literally) on curves. And they were made by Bombardier here in CH, not by lazy Italians taking a nap after lunch.
Pace e amore e mi trattengo a dire quello che penso.

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't get my point across correctly.
- In my intervention, I wanted to comment on one point only, which is the success of the Italians always in being well organized, arranging, and thinking of methods outside the box.
I say this because a colleague was wondering that they could only spend half a million euros on a project that would probably cost 2 million euros. (This is what the photographer, our colleague here in the forum, said), and at this point I specifically wanted to say through my personal experience with the Italians, and according to what my father and grandfather told me, who was working with them in the forties of the last century.
My grandfather and my father used to say about them that they are a people who love management, economy and rationalization of spending, and they always succeed in that..
I did not mean to praise those in charge of the Ferrania factory project, their story is really complicated and no one understands anything, and I personally lost my enthusiasm to support this project.

Cholentpot · Apr 5, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
The Japanese. At least they make awesome cars that average Joe can afford.

And cameras. Don't forget about those. Japanese cameras are #1.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 5, 2022

Cholentpot said:
And cameras. Don't forget about those. Japanese cameras are #1.

That is a given!

flavio81 · Apr 20, 2022

Cholentpot said:
Fix It Again Tony!

For Italians, Adequate Technology

And in german:

Fehler in allen Teilen (failure in all parts)

fdonadio · May 26, 2022

flavio81 said:
For Italians, Adequate Technology

And in german:

Fehler in allen Teilen (failure in all parts)

In Brazil, we have a lot of jokes about FIAT, even though it’s by far not the worst car brand available there.

What does FIAT means, right after you buy one?

“Fui iludido, agora é tarde.” (I was deceived, now it’s [too] late.)

When you sell your FIAT:

“Foda-se, idiota, agora é teu!” (F**k-off, jerk, it’s all yours now!)

This one’s lighter, about the meaning of FIAT:

“Família italiana atrapalhando o trânsito.” (Italian family messing up the transit.)

guangong · May 26, 2022

A bit of support for Mohmad. Immediately after WWII Italian moviemakers lacked sound stages and equipment and lacking a great amount of money completely revolutionized the way movies were made by using real streets and double system sound. Meanwhile, Hollywood was still making stage prop streets and relatively static sound cameras, not to mention that practically all of the romantic leading men were about the same age age my grandfather.

flavio81 · May 26, 2022

fdonadio said:
“Foda-se, idiota, agora é teu!” (F**k-off, jerk, it’s all yours now!)

This one is very good...

Although i still think "Fehler in allen Teilen" is the best...

lxdude · May 26, 2022

twelvetone12 said:
Sincerely I find these kind of sweep generalisations quite frankly insulting. Nobody here, including me and you, know what actually happening with Ferrania and if this is due to "Italians being Italians lol". Besides big project fiascos happen everywhere, just look at the Bombardier Twindexx, the new trains bough by the SBB here in Switzerland. They should have been ready in 2013 and arrived in 2021 and are riddled with performance and technical problems. And a joy to ride since the suspensions throw you out of your seat (quite literally) on curves. And they were made by Bombardier here in CH, not by lazy Italians taking a nap after lunch.
Pace e amore e mi trattengo a dire quello che penso.

You do realize he was praising the Italians, don't you?

Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

MamiyaBronica

Burninfilm

foc

railwayman3

Nzoomed

faberryman

mohmad khatab

Nzoomed

cmacd123

mohmad khatab

Ernst-Jan

mohmad khatab

Ernst-Jan

twelvetone12

Cholentpot

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

pentaxuser

mohmad khatab

Cholentpot

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

flavio81

fdonadio

guangong

flavio81

lxdude

Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

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