B&W Reversal on Tri-X -- Results

Roses

A
Roses

  • 1
  • 0
  • 44
Rebel

A
Rebel

  • 3
  • 1
  • 58
Watch That First Step

A
Watch That First Step

  • 1
  • 0
  • 53
Barn Curves

A
Barn Curves

  • 2
  • 1
  • 47
Columbus Architectural Detail

A
Columbus Architectural Detail

  • 4
  • 2
  • 50

Forum statistics

Threads
197,487
Messages
2,759,827
Members
99,515
Latest member
falc
Recent bookmarks
0

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
I had a discussion recently on the Color Film & Developers forum concerning salvaging negatives from 30+ year old Kodachrome II that developed (as negatives) with a very dark fog-like density and eyeball-visible images that are too dim and soft in contrast to scan (and probably to print).

One conclusion that was reached was that next time I do this, I'd process the film with B&W reversal.

So, last weekend, I picked up a cubetainer of battery acid (which I've seen referenced as anything from 28% to 35% sulfuric acid) from the local parts store. No, not reagent grade, but it's been reported to work well in reversal bleach. I already had potassium dichromate on hand, purchased for alt-process printing. Sodium sulfite for clearing bath, and assorted developers, check.

Friday, I loaded a roll of Tri-X (expired 2001, slightly fogged, I think from sitting in my van in 90+ degree weather just after my move to North Carolina in late 2004) in my (1938) Balda Jubilette and shot for a while. There was a high overcast, giving relatively soft contrast; I metered for ISO 400.

Based on various web pages and the Ilford online processing instructions for reversal, I settled on the following process:

First developer: 10 minutes

Dektol 2+1, that's 2 parts stock to 1 part water, to mimic Ilford's recommended Bromophen 1+1; added 8 g/L hypo crystals and 4 g/L potassium bromide.

Ilford-style water wash (5, 10, and 20 inversions in fresh changes of water)

Bleach: 5 minutes

10 g/L potassium dichromate
12 g/L sulfuric acid (36 ml battery acid per liter of final solution)

(this is probably the most hazarous chemical I have around here, BTW -- familiarize yourself with the hazards before trying to mix this stuff; it's the only chemical I've used in the last two years for which I wear rubber gloves)

Ilford-style wash

Clearing bath: 2 minutes

100 g/L sodium sulfite

Short water rinse

Light exposure for reversal -- 2 minutes exposure to room light, alternating both sides of film

Second developer: 5 minutes

Dektol 1+1

Rapid fixer: 2 minutes

Ilford style wash

Photo-flo and hang.

The resulting diapositives look quite strong to the eye, and were fairly hard to scan (density too high to scan easily, even though my scanner usually does very well with relatively dense negatives). Excellent detail in dark areas, but skies pretty completely blown out. Pretty grainy (not surprising with Tri-X in Dektol).

Hanging behind me, probably dry now, is the second attempt. Based on reading the first strip, I shot the second test roll at EI 640, developed 20% longer in the same first dev, and used HC-110 Dilution F for 7 minutes as second dev. I'll report back with scans, but they have detail in the skies (not very strong, but definitely present) and still have excellent detail in all but the dimmest shadow areas. I may boost the EI another 1/3 stop, but I think I have the process nailed.

I'll attach a scan of one frame -- this is one of the better looking ones, because no sky to blow out. Of course, scanning tends to normalize the image, but it actually looks a bit better to the eye, held up against the light, than in the scan (because the density is on the high side for the scanner).
 

Attachments

  • 13.jpg
    13.jpg
    86.1 KB · Views: 557

CRhymer

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
439
Location
Fort Smith,
Format
ULarge Format
Hi Donald,

Firstly, congratulations on your success.

Inspired by your plan to try old Tri-x by reversal I dug out two rolls, and shot and developed them yesterday and today.

The first TX 135-24 (400) 08/2004 5961, I shot indoors by available light, with major bracketing. It was mostly overcast, but the cloud movement made rapid changes to the light coming through the window, so it is hard to do a proper comparison.

Today there were some sunny breaks, so I shot the second roll 11/2004 5981 with 6 frames each of more or less the same scene (out of doors) at 100, 200, 400 and 800.

Processing:

D-19 plus 12g/l hypo 8 minutes @ 21C., dichromate bleach, D-19 second dev., etc.

This is not really old film, but I have not tried any of it as negative stock, so I can't comment on fog - probably very little. I bought it fresh and stored it in the freezer.

There are a number of good shots from the first roll (the ones at about 400 ASA).

The second roll appears to be best at 400, but would perhaps do better at a little higher ASA - much as you observed. 800 is a bit dense to project well, but the sky looks good.

All in all I was quite impressed – some decent transparencies, and not that much grain. The proof will be in the projection, which will have to wait a few days. The Ilford reversal pdf that I have usually viewed recommends against using HP5+, but now perhaps I’ll give it a go.

You may find that Kodachrome by b&w reversal behaves a bit differently than Tri-x. I suspect it will be a bit more like Tech. Pan. At any rate, now that you have a system, you can tweak it as needed.

Cheers,
Clarence
 

nworth

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,229
Location
Los Alamos,
Format
Multi Format
Sounds like success is not far away. D-72 (or Dektol) 2+1 is just about the same formula as D-19, so the two previous respondants are playing with the same devloper. You might try D-94 or D-88 as well. Black and white reversal first developers frequently contain a silver solvent. Sodium thiocyanate, 4 - 6 g/l, is most common. Hypo does much the same thing, but it's trickier and more prone to fogging the film. From film data and literature, I get the impression that there is often a speed gain in reversal processed film, maybe up to half a stop. I see you're playing with that. You might try processing several short strips of film with different first developer times and bracketed exposures. Hope to hear more.
 
OP
OP
Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Thiocyanate might be preferable, but I have the hypo on hand anyway, to make fixer for alt-process prints that would bleach in rapid fixer. The comparison of Dektol/D-72 2+1 to D-19 hadn't escaped me, and further that was the dilution I figured I'd need to get the same response as the Ilford recommended Bromophen 1+1, after seeing they normally recommend 1+3 to do the same thing Dektol does at 1+2 for print processing. I could have just mixed some D-19, but I've got several gallons of Dektol stock solution standing around, figured I might as well use some.

Given the results I got on first try, I'm not sure if I'd say hypo isn't as tricky as all that, or just that lots of other folks worked out the tricks before I got here; my quantity of hypo was very similar to what I've seen in Ilford's process and on a few web pages that give detail on reversal processing.

Clarence, my take was that reducing exposure (i.e. uprating the film speed) would improve detail in the highlight end of scene range, and extending first development ought to both increase contrast and lighten the final diapositive. And it almost never hurts my feelings to shoot at a higher film speed... :wink:
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted

CRhymer

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
439
Location
Fort Smith,
Format
ULarge Format
Donald Qualls said:
Clarence, my take was that reducing exposure (i.e. uprating the film speed) would improve detail in the highlight end of scene range, and extending first development ought to both increase contrast and lighten the final diapositive. And it almost never hurts my feelings to shoot at a higher film speed... :wink:

Hi Donald,

I agree. Also, I have used hypo, thiocyanate, and nothing as a halide solvent. I rarely use anything for movie film, but have occasionally wished I had with Tmax100 120.

Hi Allesandro,

I believe dichromate is superior, but I have used permanganate for a few years with never a reticulation problem. The Kodak Tmax reversal kit uses permanganate. I would guess that dichromate is more active, based on suggested bleach times, and the fact that permanganate is not recommended for rewind tanks (movie film) - not enough zip I reckon. I have one, but have never used it since the Lomo and Meopta tanks work so well.

I have done very nice stereo pairs in my Sputnik with Tmax 100, D-19 and permanganate.


Cheers,
Clarence
 

CRhymer

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
439
Location
Fort Smith,
Format
ULarge Format
Hi Donald and Allesandro,

Just a couple more things; Kodak recommends Tmax 100 to be shot at EI50 for normal (reversal) contrast. They also give a method for adjusting contrast slightly in their instructions. I haven't looked at them in a long time, but here's the link:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j87/j87.pdf

This, of course may not apply to Tri-X.

As far as the dangers of dichromate, the dust is the real problem, and that is easy to control with the equipment you (Allesandro) have. Nitrile gloves might be better, but you can handle the liquid easily, and rinse your gloves often. With a little care, it is not that big a deal.

Cheers,
Clarence
 

Jordan

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
582
Location
Toronto, Can
Format
Multi Format
Cool stuff, Donald. I never tried reversing the 400-speed films, after reading Ilford's recommendation against it. Your results seem good. Dektol plus hypo is a perfectly reasonable strategy and mirrors the Bromophen plus hypo recipe that Ilford recommends.

You may find that it takes some tweaking to fine-tune the balance of developing time, film speed and hypo.

I was skeptical about dichromate for a long time but ultimately ended up using it, and I prefer it to permanganate now. It is more toxic, but it is re-usable, and you actually "handle" the bleach less as a result.
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted
OP
OP
Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Allesandro, everything I've read suggests that permanganate bleach tends to soften emulsion, which makes temperature control that much more critical. Dichromate tends to harden it. Combine that with the ability to reuse the bleach, and the fact I have to have dichromate anyway (for contrast control in cyanotype and VDB, as well as the senstizer for various colloidal medium printing methods like gum and casein), and it was easy for me.

With the quantity I'm using, and my method of measuring, dust isn't a big issue -- the material tends to clump, like slighly damp sand; I had to tap the spoons to get it to drop into the scale pan, then use the spoons to scrape the dichromate out of the scale pan before washing both, so (at least with what I have) I doubt much if any is getting airborne. And so far I've processed two short rolls (one 16 exposures, one 24) in 250 ml of bleach -- anyone know the actual capacity of the bleach on average film? I notice it gets darker each time I use it, from bright orange before use to a distinctly red-ochre shade after two uses.

One good way to avoid excess handling of the dichromate in dry form, BTW, is to make up a stock solution of known strength, preferably much stronger than any working solution you'll need (near or at saturation is good, though my objection to a genuinely saturated solution is that it changes strength with temperature). I'll probably do that next time I open the dichromate jar; since I use it at 1% to 2% strength in bleach and as a sensitizer, I'm hoping I'll be able to make up the stock to at least 10%. Then, when I want to make a fresh batch of bleach, I'll just measure 100 ml of dichromate stock, 36 ml of battery acid, and make up to one liter with distilled water -- good to go!

I can't suggest why Kodak only gets EI 64 from T-Max 100 (same as with Tech Pan, though that's "high" contrast); my slides look a LOT better (still excellent shadow detail, and no blown out skies) at EI 640 with 12 minutes in the first dev than they did at EI 400 and 10 minutes. I'm eyeballing them, though, with no projector. I might have to rig something temporary with a camera and lamp to see what they look like on a wall... :wink:

Okay, that took a couple minutes -- SLR body that only works on B, 50 mm lens, desk lamp doesn't look bad but might be a little light -- hard to be sure with all the stray light, using a wall for a screen. Great, now I need to look for mounts, a projector, and maybe a screen... :wink:
 

CRhymer

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
439
Location
Fort Smith,
Format
ULarge Format
Donald Qualls said:
...Great, now I need to look for mounts, a projector, and maybe a screen... :wink:

Hi Donald,

One can view transparencies with a 35mm film strip projector - they are quite inexpensive these days. Just make sure that the bulb is easily available and not too dear. Even better, get a Spencer (later AO) Delineascope model GK (they often come up on ebay) and you can project lantern slides as well. One in excellent condition with case should be about $45.00. The shipping to Canada is the killer – should be cheaper for you - but I have managed to acquire four of them. I had this notion that I had to project medium format 3D. I got the polarizing filters, but the project stalled due to other priorities. The slide carriers can be easily modified – or just make new ones. The originals came in wood and later aluminium. I'm sure you will be doing 6x9cm. diapositives soon. You can use black card masks taped together and cut down on the outside to fit the lantern slide sized carrier. I have tried it and it works just fine - haven't tried anti-newtonian glass yet. If you go that route, make sure that the GK has all the parts. There are two interchangeable baskets which hold the condensers and heat absorbing glass for different formats. There are also a number of lenses available. Unless you are planning to project onto the neighbour’s barn, one of appropriate length for your room is advised.

Cheers,
Clarence
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted
OP
OP
Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Alessandro Serrao said:
Have you considered to lower the first developer silver halide amount to retain highlight details?

Given the amount of time I spend wishing I had faster film, I'd rather shoot at a higher EI, especially when I'm getting such excellent shadow detail. And after scanning, I'm pretty happy with the results from the second roll, though I'll bump the EI another 1/3 stop for the next (actually, already did, it's shot, but not yet processed).

After scanning the second roll, I can report that the HC-110 second dev made a significant improvement in grain; these are about the same as the best I get in negatives with this same film in HC-110.

2a45ac89.jpg



3236c63e.jpg


Kodak Motormatic 35, Tri-X at EI 640, auto exposed.
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted

Hans Borjes

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
119
Location
Berlin
Format
Medium Format
Alessandro Serrao said:
I've halved the permanganate concentration and left unchanged the acid part: the emulsion is more protected that way and I'm able to run the process even at higher temperature: thanks Hans, a very precious piece of advice you gave me.
Salve Alessandro,

my process for FP4 as a Scala clone is now complete. I have almost finished a process description and will publish it the next days.

Ciao, Hans
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted
OP
OP
Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
Thanks, Hans -- I didn't read it in detail, but I grabbed a copy to look at later. :smile:
 
OP
OP
Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
12,073
Location
North Carolina
Format
Multi Format
I'll go back and bookmark it, but I've learned to grab pages that are really useful, in case they vanish (as stuff sometimes does on the web)...
 

paulgray

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
7
Format
35mm
Thanks for the quick reply and working link Hans
Have you or anyone else used your process with Foma 100 or 400?
I'm also wondering how it might work with Lith film.
 

Hans Borjes

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
119
Location
Berlin
Format
Medium Format
Thanks for the quick reply and working link Hans
Have you or anyone else used your process with Foma 100 or 400?
I'm also wondering how it might work with Lith film.

No, I haven't. But I think Ilford material is very common worldwide. For the moment I will continue to optimise Pan F, because I would like higher contrast. I could also imagine to try Tri-X.

Please be aware that every film needs individual handling. There is no "one fits all" b/w reversal process - as opposed to E6 colour reversal.
 

bjorke

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Messages
2,252
Location
SF sometimes
Format
Multi Format
This is cool, have you shot comparison negatives? I'm curious about the specific changes in curve and range that you get from this.
 

dr5chrome

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
461
Format
Medium Format
This is still mind boggling to me.. Hp5 is not only our highest volume film it can be processed to 1600iso comfortably... at least through our process..
I guess we must get used to being a lost flea on the dog....:wink:

dw

www.dr5.com


Cool stuff, Donald. I never tried reversing the 400-speed films, after reading Ilford's recommendation against it. Your results seem good. Dektol plus hypo is a perfectly reasonable strategy and mirrors the Bromophen plus hypo recipe that Ilford recommends.

You may find that it takes some tweaking to fine-tune the balance of developing time, film speed and hypo.

I was skeptical about dichromate for a long time but ultimately ended up using it, and I prefer it to permanganate now. It is more toxic, but it is re-usable, and you actually "handle" the bleach less as a result.
 

dr5chrome

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
461
Format
Medium Format
VERY GOOD DON!

TX @ 640 good shadow and highlight detail, low grain! TX will actually do well to 1000iso, a bit of a break-up just past 800..

regards

dw
www.dr5.com


Given the amount of time I spend wishing I had faster film, I'd rather shoot at a higher EI, especially when I'm getting such excellent shadow detail. And after scanning, I'm pretty happy with the results from the second roll, though I'll bump the EI another 1/3 stop for the next (actually, already did, it's shot, but not yet processed).

After scanning the second roll, I can report that the HC-110 second dev made a significant improvement in grain; these are about the same as the best I get in negatives with this same film in HC-110.
 

Hans Borjes

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
119
Location
Berlin
Format
Medium Format
hans; I would highly disagree with this comment.. we process 25+ film types as slide, superior to their negative counterparts, as you have discovered with FP4....

regards
dw

www.dr5.com

You may want to look at my doc again, there are more films successfully done than FP4.

Are you saying that all films in DR5 are processed with one and the same setting (chemical concentration, time, temperature, agitation)? This can't be true...
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom