B&W Paper Reversal

pkr1979 · Jul 4, 2025

Hi all,

So, Ive got some 8x10 Ektachrome E100 I'd like to try to make some silver chloride contact paper copies of (Adox Lupex). To do this I would have to reverse it. I have done a lot of B&W film reversal, and I am wondering if I can use the same bleach (I use dichromate) and clearing? Furthermore, the paper is pretty developer dependent - and I assume I will have to use a stronger dilution (more developer and less water)? Exposure time is already quite long but I assume this also has to be longer if one wants to reverse?

I am aware that this has to be tried before one knows, but I would assume that general principles for black and white paper reversal is a good start.

Cheers
Peter

koraks · Jul 4, 2025

In principle, yes, you can use the same bleach. Dialing in the desired contrast will be challenging though, especially because Lupex is a high contrast material (grade 4) and slides have a long range. So that's a fundamental mismatch and it may prove to be (too) tricky to try and coax the paper into a longer tonal scale. Moreover, the paper is only blue-sensitive, so you'll lose most color information, making the result even more harsh.

Would it be a problem if the resulting prints are extremely harsh with completely blocked shadows and blown out highlights? Or are you looking for a normal continuous tone result? In that case, I'd just scan and output to whatever suitable/desired media.

pkr1979 · Jul 4, 2025

koraks said:
In principle, yes, you can use the same bleach. Dialing in the desired contrast will be challenging though, especially because Lupex is a high contrast material (grade 4) and slides have a long range. So that's a fundamental mismatch and it may prove to be (too) tricky to try and coax the paper into a longer tonal scale. Moreover, the paper is only blue-sensitive, so you'll lose most color information, making the result even more harsh.

Would it be a problem if the resulting prints are extremely harsh with completely blocked shadows and blown out highlights? Or are you looking for a normal continuous tone result? In that case, I'd just scan and output to whatever suitable/desired media.

Ha Yes - it will be a problem if the resulting prints are extremely harsh with completely blocked shadows and blown out highlight. But it doesn't have to be a continuous tone result. I like the Ortho look, and contrast can be reduced with preflashing. I get that this is something I might try only once... but I would like to try to see what happens

So - same bleach and clearing... And developer strength? And exposure time compared to regular black and white?

koraks · Jul 4, 2025

You'll have to test the developer configuration and exposure. I expect you'll have to work with a much longer exposure than for normal printing since you'll have to smash something like 2.7logD (at least!) into a printing paper that likes, what, 0.6 or so. So that means 7 stops or so more exposure and then cut back development so you don't develop everything into deep blacks. Again, I'm not optimistic you can achieve this kind of extreme compression.

pkr1979 · Jul 4, 2025

Indeed - I might skip this one.

Donald Qualls · Jul 7, 2025

Might be (a lot) simpler to make an internegative on multi-grade paper (filtering the light will let you cut down contrast at that stage) and then when you have a correctly exposed and "flat enough" negative, contact print that back to your Lupex.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 7, 2025

In this specific case, it is probably more rewarding to explore a hybrid workflow where the end result can still be on Lupex.

pkr1979 · Jul 8, 2025

Donald Qualls said:
Might be (a lot) simpler to make an internegative on multi-grade paper (filtering the light will let you cut down contrast at that stage) and then when you have a correctly exposed and "flat enough" negative, contact print that back to your Lupex.

Thanks man. There is something here I dont understand though... how am I supposed to use a multigrade paper as an internegative? Wouldn't I need film to do that?

pkr1979 · Jul 8, 2025

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
In this specific case, it is probably more rewarding to explore a hybrid workflow where the end result can still be on Lupex.

Thanks. Like a digital negative? Or what did you have in mind?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 8, 2025

pkr1979 said:
Thanks. Like a digital negative? Or what did you have in mind?

Yes. You can make a low contrast digital negative and contact print it on Lupex, develop, fix and tone.

Alternatively, you can make a high contrast digital negative and make a POP print using Lumen process on Lupex. Lumen is a developer-less contact printing process using sunlight for exposure. Lupex is known to be very well suited for Lumen process (please see The Experimental Darkroom by Christina Z. Anderson for more info).

Donald Qualls · Jul 8, 2025

pkr1979 said:
Thanks man. There is something here I dont understand though... how am I supposed to use a multigrade paper as an internegative? Wouldn't I need film to do that?

Yes, you'd use multigrade paper as the internegative, just like you were shooting paper negatives in camera -- and with the same caveats, that the color of the subject can affect local contrast. But you can still control overall contrast with contrast filters, and paper negatives contact print back to a paper positive pretty readily (though exposure times will be longer than with film).

pkr1979 · Jul 8, 2025

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Yes. You can make a low contrast digital negative and contact print it on Lupex, develop, fix and tone.

Alternatively, you can make a high contrast digital negative and make a POP print using Lumen process on Lupex. Lumen is a developer-less contact printing process using sunlight for exposure. Lupex is known to be very well suited for Lumen process (please see The Experimental Darkroom by Christina Z. Anderson for more info).

Thanks - I'll check this out.

pkr1979 · Jul 8, 2025

Donald Qualls said:
Yes, you'd use multigrade paper as the internegative, just like you were shooting paper negatives in camera -- and with the same caveats, that the color of the subject can affect local contrast. But you can still control overall contrast with contrast filters, and paper negatives contact print back to a paper positive pretty readily (though exposure times will be longer than with film).

Thanks - I didnt know you could use paper to make contact prints on a new paper. I'll check this out too.

koraks · Jul 8, 2025

pkr1979 said:
I didnt know you could use paper to make contact prints on a new paper.

You can. There's evidently a significant speed loss since you have you to expose through the paper base, so exposures on Lupo will be even longer than usual. With FB paper (as the negative) it doesn't work particularly well as today's papers are all relatively heavy and the fiber base may show up as a texture in the final print. It works fairly well with RC paper though.

Donald Qualls · Jul 8, 2025

Even better, you can use *cheap* paper and save your Lupex for when you have the negative contrast you want.

koraks · Jul 8, 2025

Definitely. The Lupex wouldn't be very suitable for the negative anyway.

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