B&W Paper Printing for a Beginner

yes ordering two would be the safer bet... since it is a 'light bulb' of sorts going through the mail, and from the reviews, they will ship another one if it's dead on arrival. so make sure you check both.

I was thinking of sending you a specialty safelight, but it sounds like you'll have more fun doing it yourself.

Regarding safelights, I looked through a few threads and Ralph Lambrecht says red is good, so red must be good. No safelight is really "safe" it's all relative...

In normal safelights, the filter only transmits 10% of the "safe" color, so in addition to being a relatively safe color, the traditional safelight filter works to keep the level of illumination low.

You don't want to make it bright in the room. It's safest when you can just see your hands and what you are doing, keep it dark. You could put the LED's in a cardboard box near the ceiling, pointing up, with maybe a 1 or 2 inch hole in the box. Then the light from that contraption bouncing off the ceiling will probably be safe. It'll be safer than the LED lights by themselves.

I was also thinking you could break a beer bottle and tape one or two big chunks of the dark brown glass over the opening in the small box.

Bill Burk said:

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You don't want to make it bright in the room. It's safest when you can just see your hands and what you are doing, keep it dark. You could put the LED's in a cardboard box near the ceiling, pointing up, with maybe a 1 or 2 inch hole in the box. Then the light from that contraption bouncing off the ceiling will probably be safe. It'll be safer than the LED lights by themselves.

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Good technique; I'll look into it!

On another note, even if the red light is a little bright so the kids don't have a problem seeing, in all actuality the papers will only be susceptible to light for probably 2 or 3 minutes, right? (1&1/2 min for developer, 30 seconds for stop bath, and then the start of fixing it will stop any possibilities of fogging) For that time, I'm not sure any miniscule amount of fogging caused by a bare red LED bulb shining in the room will really matter. After all, this isn't professional quality, its just for fun and to show kids that photos(and great ones at that) can be made in some way other than pressing a button on some mysterious electronic contraption and then plugging into your computer, which I HIGHLY doubt ANY of them will know at their age and living in this century.

Bill Burk said:

]I was also thinking you could break a beer bottle and tape one or two big chunks of the dark brown glass over the opening in the small box.

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Sounds interesting... :confused: I think I'll pass but thanks for the suggestion!

Thanks again!

clothesontheline said:

Good technique; I'll look into it!

On another note, even if the red light is a little bright so the kids don't have a problem seeing, in all actuality the papers will only be susceptible to light for probably 2 or 3 minutes, right? (1&1/2 min for developer, 30 seconds for stop bath, and then the start of fixing it will stop any possibilities of fogging) For that time, I'm not sure any miniscule amount of fogging caused by a bare red LED bulb shining in the room will really matter. After all, this isn't professional quality, its just for fun and to show kids that photos(and great ones at that) can be made in some way other than pressing a button on some mysterious electronic contraption and then plugging into your computer, which I HIGHLY doubt ANY of them will know at their age and living in this century.



Sounds interesting... :confused: I think I'll pass but thanks for the suggestion!

Thanks again!

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It could be a root beer bottle if you're worried about setting a bad example.

Paper will only be in the safelight for 2 or 3 minutes, correct. And this is just for the kids so perfect results aren't the main goal, you're right there too. Don't open the entire package though. Try to keep the inner bag shielded and slip one sheet out at a time.

The paper will probably say develop for 90 seconds on the instructions. I use 3 minutes in developer these days. That's for prints. Your paper "negatives" may need to be pulled out ("snatched") from the developer when they are just right, and that might be anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. 30 seconds usually makes a mottled print, but if you have to make a choice between a mottled negative and one that is solid black - mottled is better than solid black.

Bill Burk said:

It could be a root beer bottle if you're worried about setting a bad example.

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No, its just I don't want to go through the trouble..

Bill burk brought something up... when you finally develop you negatives, make sure you do keep a close eye on them.. as for making you prints (positives) from the negatives, make sure they fully develop a rich deep black... this is a minor detail not important, but you will notice that the images with greater impact have a completely developed black... for this, you will try to aim for the right exposure times, if the images come out too gray and lots of white, expose your prints (positives) from the negatives again with more time... after a couple of times, you'll understand what i mean, but remember developing completely will leave everyone more satisfied with the results.

To add to mesantacruz' idea...

Treat the camera paper negatives like film: Develop in diluted developer - maybe 1:9 or 1:10 water:developer ratio - for as long as it takes to get to a medium/middle gray. No sharp blacks wanted in the paper negatives, you kind of want a medium gray*. If not sure when to stop, you could cut one of the camera negatives into a few pieces and try 1 minute, 2 minutes, 4 minutes (in that diluted developer)...

Then take those few pieces and reassemble them onto paper to print.

For the prints - Here you want to develop all the way to black. Here you want to develop the full 1 to 3 minutes in the standard dilution of developer (like 1:2)

After this experiment, you may know how long to develop the paper negatives - and how long to expose the paper prints.

*Darker gray might be needed if the whole paper negative looks "flat". Like if you can't see details because everything blends together, you can develop longer to darker gray. The paper negative might be "overexposed" - what you want is a "difference" or contrast to be approximately the difference from clean white to middle gray. If the camera shot was overexposed you won't have a clean white, you will have a middle gray for the lightest part. In the case of an overexposed camera shot you will need to keep developing until you have middle gray to dark-middle-gray. The paper negative development time should be consistent, if a good properly exposed paper negative takes 3 minutes in dilute developer, then an overexposed paper negative should also take 3 minutes, even if it looks like it's going dark.

Hope this isn't too much detail or information to absorb.

Bill's advice is very good to get the best quality from your pinhole contact prints. I like to use 1:8 dektol for this purpose, and it can get easier once the dektol is a little bit used. Like many things "practice makes perfect"... after a while you will have a good feel for it by how fast the image comes up and how much contrast you can see under the safelight.

The prints can be surprisingly beautiful and I would say this process is not just "fun for kids" or "easy and simple but lacking". It does not need to suffer from its simplicity and in my opinion is a very legitimate and wonderful hands-on form of photography.

I haven't gone back and read all the pages, but it's also true that with VC paper the contrast will change depending on your light source. If you use an incandescent bulb you might get a nicer look than fluorescent, which can have a lot of blue and make the prints have a harsher high contrast look.

Have fun, what a wonderful project! I hope you make lots of future converts into the wonderful world of pinhole photography!

Thanks for all the recent info, it has been very, very helpful! On another note, my recent trip to the Dollar Tree certainly proved to be a success. (Or at least I think it did.)

You can check it out here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

If you look at the trays I got, how many 5x7 prints do you think I can develop at once?

I've mentioned this before, but what about using those shiny metal/aluminum (kindof flimsy) trays that you use to cook a chicken/ piece of meat in? Could they be used as a better option to what I purchased?

Polyglot has mentioned to use a #0 filter over the light source to reduce contrast when printing, any ideas on how to do that exactly? Rig up a box to direct the light and tape a filter over the opening?

I've already made 2 pinhole cameras out of cigar boxes, and will probably be sharing those and some others very shortly.

Thanks!

clothesontheline said:

I've mentioned this before, but what about using those shiny metal/aluminum (kindof flimsy) trays that you use to cook a chicken/ piece of meat in? Could they be used as a better option to what I purchased?

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Aluminum plus photo chemistry is a bad idea - aluminum is quite active chemically.

clothesontheline said:

Polyglot has mentioned to use a #0 filter over the light source to reduce contrast when printing, any ideas on how to do that exactly? Rig up a box to direct the light and tape a filter over the opening?
Thanks!

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I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know what light source you will use for contact printing, but for some time I used a flashlight bulb mounted inside a steel can ( like a bean can ). On the open end, I made a little "shelf" out of cardboard with a circular hole that a normal camera filter could slip into. The contact printing light was thrown together in about 10 minutes from various scraps I found in my garage ( two "D" cell batteries, a flashlight bulb, some wire, and a switch to control the timing. I screwed the contraption to a piece of wood and mounted it about 4 feet above the surface where I used to make the contact prints. ) Those prints usually took between 1 and 2 minutes to make a nice contact.

Also, if you are going to use a filter, you can ignore my earlier suggestion about not using a fluorescent light. It would work provided you can rig it up so the light goes through the filter. These days I use an enlarger, but there was something fun about using a homemade "soup can light" too!

Another idea, that I haven't tried, would be to use a flashlight with the filter attached in a cardboard tube. Since you'll have helpers, they could turn it on and off, or you could use a piece of black card to block the light and time the exposures.

For a lower contrast print, you can use a grade 0 enlarging filter, or you can also use a green filter ( like commonly sold for black and white photography. )

Fun!

When I was too lazy to setup my enlarger, I used to do contact prints using the room light. The 100W globe in the light fixture was too bright (couldn't flick the switch on and off quick enough!) but after replacing it with something (can't remember what wattage I used) it was useable. Flick the switch, count... one cat and dog, two cat and dog, three cat and dog... etc

Didn't a Weston use a light bulb for his contacts?

NedL said:

I haven't followed this thread closely enough to know what light source you will use for contact printing, but for some time I used a flashlight bulb mounted inside a steel can ( like a bean can ). On the open end, I made a little "shelf" out of cardboard with a circular hole that a normal camera filter could slip into. The contact printing light was thrown together in about 10 minutes from various scraps I found in my garage ( two "D" cell batteries, a flashlight bulb, some wire, and a switch to control the timing. I screwed the contraption to a piece of wood and mounted it about 4 feet above the surface where I used to make the contact prints. ) Those prints usually took between 1 and 2 minutes to make a nice contact.

Also, if you are going to use a filter, you can ignore my earlier suggestion about not using a fluorescent light. It would work provided you can rig it up so the light goes through the filter. These days I use an enlarger, but there was something fun about using a homemade "soup can light" too!

Another idea, that I haven't tried, would be to use a flashlight with the filter attached in a cardboard tube. Since you'll have helpers, they could turn it on and off, or you could use a piece of black card to block the light and time the exposures.

For a lower contrast print, you can use a grade 0 enlarging filter, or you can also use a green filter ( like commonly sold for black and white photography. )

Fun!

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I ordered this 15w bulb http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/122015-REG/General_Brand_15A15CL130_Lamp_15_watts.html as recommended to use when contact printing in this instructional: http://users.rcn.com/stewoody/darkcam2.htm but it didn't mention using a filter (they were using graded paper)

I'm not sure whether the filter will be circular or rectangular, or even if I have it yet(my friend is getting back to me) so I may need some help to acquire one w/o buying an entire set. If its rectangular, I'll probably just masking tape it over the opening of the contraption I come up with.

Do you have a picture of the thing you rigged up b4 the enlarger?

For the bulb did you just use a light socket w/ a wire? Like the type of thing others use for hanging their safelight?

Thanks!

Ha! No, it was really "jury rigged"... I soldered the wire to the bulb and just stuck it through a hole punched into the bottom of the can. I threw it together very fast, but it worked just fine and I used it for maybe a year.

I'll go and look and see if it is still in my closet ( aka "darkroom" ). If it is, I might be able to take a photo. It really was just as simple as it sounds... get the juice to the bulb with a way to turn it on and off in the dark.

Back in a few minutes!

OK here are some crummy photos. The first is the bean can looking up toward the ceiling of my closet. I'm holding the switch, which normally hangs down to where it can be used conveniently in the dark. The second picture ( holding the camera over my head and guessing -- sorry about the blur! ) shows that the batteries are on top of the wood held in place with cup hooks and rubber bands.



You can see the cardboard "shelf" which allows me to put a filter under the light. Also, there is only one hole punched in the can, on the side. I threaded the wire through it and soldered the light bulb to it. The bulb is just suspended in air near the top of the can... it's not held in by anything except the stiffness of the wire.

So, like I said, ugly and thrown together, but it actually served it's purpose for a long time before I got my enlarger. The cardboard is just held on with duct tape.

Ned

Clothesontheline, I shipped the box of Ilford paper yesterday, you should have it soon. I included a couple of lumens with it, so be careful when you unwrap the package(they aren't inside the box). They are marked as to untoned and toned. Have fun with the kids, and have fun yourself.

cheers

Rick A said:

Clothesontheline, I shipped the box of Ilford paper yesterday, you should have it soon. I included a couple of lumens with it, so be careful when you unwrap the package(they aren't inside the box). They are marked as to untoned and toned. Have fun with the kids, and have fun yourself.

cheers

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Thanks so much! I'm looking forward to it.. my main materials arrived today, so I will probably do some tests soon. The paper will be well used!

Alright, I'm just starting to get into everything, I have a couple quick questions about the chemicals:

Ill be using Kodak Dektol for developing, and the mixing is still a little bit confusing and the package is not helping..

So first, I'm thinking you make a "stock solution" AKA a highly concentrated mixture of water and chem.; The paackage says to use app. 52C emp. water to mix it, which according to this thread is warm/very warm water but not burning to your skin (there was a url link here which no longer exists) ..you mix the entire packet of dektol first with about 3 quarts of the right temp. water, followed by enough to get up to a gallon. You can do this mixing in any type of plastic container.. some say you can just shake it up.. others say just stir it in a bucket and then pour it into a container.. suggestions? comments?

Do I have to mix all the powder at once, or can i cut back on the "recipe" and use 1&1/2 and then 2 qaurts for the stock solution? or a similar ratio?

Once obtaining the stock solution and probably letting it dissolve/sit overnight ill use it the next day/days.

This is where you use the ratios of developer(stock solution) : water... correct? So for instance I could mix up a batch of developer 1 part stock solution to 2(normal dillution) or 9 parts(suggested for my project) water to fill up the trays about 1.2 inch? How should I mix it? In another jug and then immediately have the ability to pour it into the tray? At that point, Im thinking the developer should be chilled with a bag of ice down to 68F.. anyways to tell the temp w/o a thermometer?

I have the same questions for the fixer aswell. Your answers are dearly appreciated!

Do NOT shake the developer to stir!!! This introduces oxygen into the developer which shortens the working life of the chems. Mix at least the day before needing it and dissolve as per package directions. Mix in a bucket or other vessel large enough to hold full contents plus room to stir, and allow to cool over night. Further dilution is achieved by mixing stock solution to working strength with room temp water.

I agree with Rick, it would be better if you could mix up stock solution the day before. And 1:8 or 1:9 for the paper negatives, but then 1:2 for your contact prints! The stock solution keeps well.

Any comments on the other questions? Does the process I have mentioned sound correct?

For what it's worth, I keep two bottles of dektol ( I buy the 1 liter envelopes, so I'm not dealing with a gallon, but it should be the same idea. ) One is stock solution. The other is "working solution" diluted 1:2. I pour from the working solution bottle whenever I develop prints or paper negatives, diluting more at that point as needed. When it's all gone I make a new bottle of working solution from the stock.

Do use the hot water to mix, I've heard stories that dektol can be hard to mix if the water is cold. I've never tried mixing less than the full envelope, but I've read that it might be difficult... don't know about that.

For fixer, I mix up 250 ml at a time to the strength I need, and use it up. For tray processing, I'd guess 500ml should do. This is from liquid rapid fix concentrate, so it would be different if you are starting from power.

I think you'll be fine! Have fun!

clothesontheline said:

So first, I'm thinking you make a "stock solution" ... Do I have to mix all the powder at once, or can i cut back on the "recipe" and use 1&1/2 and then 2 qaurts for the stock solution? or a similar ratio?

Once obtaining the stock solution ... is where you use the ratios of developer(stock solution) : water... correct?
...
Im thinking the developer should be chilled with a bag of ice down to 68F.. anyways to tell the temp w/o a thermometer?

I have the same questions for the fixer aswell. Your answers are dearly appreciated!

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Most often the advice is to mix it all up at once. If you pass the first 3 quarts through a filter, there may be some chemicals that don't dissolve well in concentrate. When that happens to me, I pour the last part of fresh water over the filter to dissolve the final grains.

Yes, the stock solution is a little concentrated, so then you mix _that_ 1:2 or 1:9 depending. I just pour in 12 ounces stock + 24 ounces water right in the tray (for a quick example of 1:2). If it's warm out and you have a refrigerator / ice your idea is good to put ice in a baggie and then set that in the tray until it reaches 68-degrees F. Or you can mix 1 part of developer and some parts of refrigerated water with some parts warmer tap water.

68-degrees is a temperature that feels both warm _and_ cold at the same time to your fingers. It's kind of paradoxical, but so long as you feel like your developer is on the dividing line between warm and cold, you are probably close enough for your project.

Fixer depends what you got... Some fixer comes concentrated and you mix with parts of water. Powder fixer usually makes a gallon that you use full strength.

Help! I need someone to answer this ? ASAP. I'm at the camp right now and need a little help with the developing. When I use 1:9 ratioof developer does that mean 1 part water to 9 part developer(100 ml: 900 ml).. or 1part developer to 9 parts water(100ml: 900ml)

1part developer to 9 parts water(100ml: 900ml)