B&W Color Balance Under the Forest Canopy

Kitahara Jinja

D
Kitahara Jinja

  • 1
  • 0
  • 29
Custom Cab

A
Custom Cab

  • 3
  • 1
  • 49
Table for four.

H
Table for four.

  • 10
  • 0
  • 106
Waiting

A
Waiting

  • 5
  • 0
  • 99

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
197,598
Messages
2,761,674
Members
99,411
Latest member
Warmaji
Recent bookmarks
0
OP
OP

dancqu

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
3,649
Location
Willamette V
Format
Medium Format
Dear Dan, True. You said 'balanced for tungsten' (post 1)
which is equally meaningless -Cheers, Roger

Balanced as with color films are balanced for indoor
or outdoor use; ie taken to mean tungsten or daylight.
Unless I've forgotten the terminology?

Apart from all that I'm now struggling to understand
why precisely filter factors are necessary. Any clues?
I think it may have to do with an averaging of negative
densities across the spectrum. Filtering out some portion
of the spectrum does not affect film sensitivity yet most
filters require an increase in exposure. Dan
 

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,029
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Filters filter out light. White light is a combination of all wave lengths of visible light -- remove some of that light by using a filter and you have less light hitting the film. Some objects reflect a limited spectrum of light (if that is the correct way to say it). Thus an object that reflects primarily red light, would be darker when photographed thru a blue filter -- it would be "underexposed" relative to the rest of the scene. But the rest of the scene also is reflecting light that includes red (such as white objects, orange, brown, etc.) giving the film less exposure over-all.

I suppose even that red object is reflecting some blue light, tho only a small amount -- thus we have different shades and intensities of "red".

In theory, a scene of nothing but blue objects photographed thru a blue filter, would not need any filter factor applied. But scenes are typically full spectrum.

You are correct, film sensitivity is not changed by filters -- the filters reduce the amount of light reaching the film. Film is more sensitive to blue light -- use a red filter and you have eliminated a major portion of the light the film is most sensitive to -- thus one of the reasons that the filter factor for red filters tend to be highter than blue filters (along with the large amount of blue light that makes up a daytime landscape.)

I use a yellow filter to photograph the Fall colors in the redwoods (only yellow really -- not the East coast variety of colors). The yellow filter reduces the exposure of the blues (and also greens, purples and whites). Rather than have most of the scene underexposed and the yellows unaffected, I increase the exposure to bring the blues, greens and purples back to their proper exposure and the yellows are "over-exposed" and create wonderful hightlights.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,029
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Balanced as with color films are balanced for indoor
or outdoor use; ie taken to mean tungsten or daylight.
Unless I've forgotten the terminology?Dan

Not forgotten, you but applying the terminology out of context. Color film is made out of layers of emulsions, each with their own sensitivity to different colors -- balencing the responce of these layers requires careful balencing of the color temperature that the film is exposed to...in order to reproduce the colors we see.

B&W films being a single emulsion layer does not have this concern. However, because B&W film differs in its sensitivity to different areas of the light spectrum, there is some effect. Thus, a yellow filter is often used with pan film to render skies closer to what our eyes see.

Copy film (ortho -- not pan) is relatively highly sensitive to blue...so in copy work, different ASA's are given to copy film depending on the light source. Tunsten light has less blue light in it -- so the ASA is lower than when used in daylight. So copy film is not "balenced" for tunsten, it is just not as sensitive to it because tunsten light has less blue light..but our light meters don't know that.
 

Roger Hicks

Member
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
4,895
Location
Northern Aqu
Format
35mm RF
Dear Dan,

Vaughn has answered both questions perfectly, with the slight addendum that some B+W films are in fact bipack (double layer) emulsions and some may even be tripack, though I think (I'm not sure) that if there are 3 or more emulsions then normally some of them are blended instead of being coated separately.

Cheers,

Roger
 
OP
OP

dancqu

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
3,649
Location
Willamette V
Format
Medium Format
Dan, take a look at the sensitivity curves for Ilford FP4+.
It has reduced blue sensitivity compared to most other films.

A "blue de-sensitizer" is easy: Yellow dye. I don't know if
that's what Ilford uses, but I like the colour response of
FP4+ better than other films I've tried for most
outdoors work.

The FP4+ curve is quite different with it's steady rise to
a peak in the very red. Ilford's curve is plotted at 2850K.
It is the least 'balanced' of any of several curves I've just
reviewed including Acros 100. May be it is faster in use
than some other 100 to 125 films; skip the use of the
light yellow filter.

Ilford's SFX is interesting with it's extended red sensitivity
but still a fully panchromatic film. Have not considered it
due to it being not so fine a grain film. Likely will add a
few rolls to my next order. Dan
 

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,029
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Dan,

I have noticed that TMax 100, when photographing scenes with blue sky in them, is like using a conventional film with a yellow filter...which is about as dark as I personally like skies. An orange or red filter too way overboard for my liking of skies.

SFX is sensitive to some UV if I remember right -- if so, then one is getting some exposure from light one does not even see.

Vaughn
 
OP
OP

dancqu

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
3,649
Location
Willamette V
Format
Medium Format
The unseasonable wet cold weather here in Western Oregon
kept me out of the woods. Did at last make it out and to a falls
with cavernous overhanging back cut. Awesome. Threatening.
One million tons of black basalt overhead.

Five filter changes over 12 exposures, all same scene.
Processed in my 8-80 version of D-23. Dilution 1:7, 500ml,
16minutes. All came out splendidly. A good appraisal must
await printing. Dan
 

dslater

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
740
Location
Hollis, NH
Format
35mm
Balanced as with color films are balanced for indoor
or outdoor use; ie taken to mean tungsten or daylight.
Unless I've forgotten the terminology?

Apart from all that I'm now struggling to understand
why precisely filter factors are necessary. Any clues?
I think it may have to do with an averaging of negative
densities across the spectrum. Filtering out some portion
of the spectrum does not affect film sensitivity yet most
filters require an increase in exposure. Dan

Dan,
I believe that filters reduce the amount of light passing through them across the whole spectrum, they just reduce the complementary color more than the rest of the spectrum.
Dan
 

CBG

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Messages
889
Format
Multi Format
Why filter factors are needed

Apart from all that I'm now struggling to understand
why precisely filter factors are necessary. Any clues?
I think it may have to do with an averaging of negative
densities across the spectrum. Filtering out some portion
of the spectrum does not affect film sensitivity yet most
filters require an increase in exposure. Dan


Dancqu - It's not a loss of sensitivity on the part of the film. It's that less total light gets to the film. It's probably not very helpful to think of it in terms of some averaging. It's just a loss, and unless you want to reduce total exposure you must compensate for the loss.

A filter factor is designed to get you back in the ballpark when using an external - handheld - meter or the like, in fairly normal conditions. It tells you roughly what fraction of total light outside the camera is getting to the film. A 2X factor says half the light is absorbed by the filter.

Filter factors can be a conundrum. One you start thinking about them a lot, life can get more complex than you probably want.

Why?

1. Because many of us have in camera meters - life gets confusing. Were an in-camera meter truly matched in response to the film, a factor would be un-needed for most general uses. Best to simple meter externally when using strong filters.

2. Because not all subjects are "normal". If you photograph a bright red object in a bright red room - with only one blue detail you just want to turn black by using a #29, your filter factor may screw you up. The dominant red image will pass largely unimpeded, much as if no filter were present. The blue item will go black. If you bump up the exposure several stops, you will probably overexpose.

Best,

C
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom