B+W "Basic" filters vs. F-Pro

[Michael Mutmansky]

Folks,

I am looking to purchase some B&W contrast color filters for my new film gear, and I was planning on buying some B+W filters to get the good brass threads and multicoating, but it seems that they have discontinued the F-Pro line and have introduced a new line called "Basic".

I'm trying to figure out the differences between the two and I can see a few, but the B+W website is somewhat incomplete on real info, so I'm hoping someone here has a bit more knowledge or maybe personal experience with both lines.

The F-Pro are still available and somewhat less expensive than the new Basic line.

Notes on the comparison:
F-Pro isn't a thin filter. I see that as an advantage with the new Basic line for WA lenses... especially the gx167 that I now have.
The Basic line has knurling on the outside of the ring which is nice, IMO, unless it interferes with getting a lens hood on.
They both appear to be multicoated...
I think they are both brass... the Basic info dosn't specifically state that, but I don't think they would change that.

The last thing to note is that they are only making four contrast filters in the Basic line, 91, 90, 40, 22, so dark red, light red, orange, yellow. The older line had a lot more filters and they may still be available places or used, including orange-green and green, shades of blue, and other shades of the other colors.

So, generally speaking, if the Basic line just as useable as the old F-Pro line? Are the threads deep enough to work well when filters are stacked? Is it worth the $25+ higher cost increase for the slim filters? The old F-Pro were more than the Hoya MC filters, but not hugely so. These new ones are a lot more expensive and I'm debating just getting the F-Pro filters for the cost savings (I need a set for 67mm and 77mm).

For example, in the red #25 filter, the F-Pro is $63, the Basic is $87, and the Hoya HMC is $37 from BHPhotovideo, so the cost increase makes these new ones 2.5X the cost of good quality Hoya HMC versions. That's getting hard to justify IMO.


Thanks,

---Michael

 

[DREW WILEY]

The more expensive B&W version claims to have 8 layers of multi-coating. I don't know how to respond since I'll probably never buy one. So far, I've found Hoya's multicoatings to be physically harder and easier to clean than the B&W multi-resistant MRC types. The other factor is that, due to hard use in all kinds of weather, I sometimes need to replace commonly used filters like the 25, and even keep multiples of that one on hand, so do need to think about the cost factor too. And I use various sizes of filters, standardizing on a 52mm sets, a 67mm set, a 72mm set, and an 82mm set, depending, plus certain step rings. Now those 82's can get pretty darn expensive. If Hoya offers the contrast filter I need, that's what I go with. Otherwise, I snoop around somewhere else. Color photography has somewhat different filter demands, so I'm not going to complicate this thread with that.

Another contrast filter I use a lot is the 22 deep orange, which Hoya doesn't even offer, so I turn to either B&W or Heliopan for that, and expect to pay a lot more. But frankly, I prefer the harder single coating of the Heliopan over even the MC coating of B&W. With a decent lens shade and other than wide-angle lenses pointed the direction of the sun, flare difference is inconsequential.

Maybe one unspoken reason they are upping prices so much is that there just isn't as much demand for film filters anymore, and the lesser volume makes things unprofitable otherwise, so they need to come up with some kind of excuse or fancy tweak to justify more profit margin. I see the same thing in ordinary UV filters, where they now get labeled as "Digital filters" to justify a higher price, even though they're exactly the same thing all along.

To know what the full filter selection is in any given coating category, you really have to go to the main German website or dealer lists in Europe. The selection is broader there, though not everything is necessarily in stock. Sometimes items don't even get labeled for the US market or distributed here until older stocks of the same color filter run out first.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

So far, I've found Hoya's multicoatings to be physically harder and easier to clean than the B&W multi-resistant MRC types.

OK, so that's a good reason to be buying the Hoya filters... I'm no snob, so if they are more useable due to the coating being a bit more robust, I'm good with taking the Hoya HMC approach.

As for B+W availabilty, I was pulling the info from a B+W website that I thin is international, so that may be it for contrast filters moving forward. That is the way of digital I guess... Maybe we should all stock up on some of this stuff if we intend to use film for the next 20 years or so.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

It looks like Hoya only has five filters in their B&W contrast filter range; Y, G, O, R, and YO. So if I wanted anyting bayond that, I'd need to be finding used filters or go to Tiffen... ugh. I think I'd be fine with Y, O, R, and maybe G, so I should be OK. However, B+W had the dark red that I was wondering about how useful that would be. Probably too strong for normal use as skies will be pretty dark with the normal #25 filter (900 in the B+W line).

Obviously I can mix filters, too...

 

[AgX]

The information is on their website.

-) there are 3 grades

-) grades differ in coating

-) uncoated , MRC-coated, MRC-nano-coated

-) the latter two are both water repellant, the last one is more repellant

-) uncoated and MRC-coated filters are both designated "Basic", the MRC-nano-coated filters "Master"

-) nearly all coated filters are only available in one coating grade, only the protection and the sole UV-filters are available in both

 

[DREW WILEY]

Michael - you also have Formatt and Heliopan to choose from. Both until relatively recently had somewhat big selections. But even Tiffen's selection has narrowed somewhat. If you go with Tiffen, you need to clean them daily it seems. They haze up rather fast due to the lack of a coating. But they do need to be applauded for still maintaining a rather big selection. Their two-sheet sandwich process, with a thermo colored film in between, seems to make using coated glass tricky, although a few filters intended for color photography are now available single coated at least.

I see you're in Sacto, but that's close enough for you to drive to Richmond to the warehouse of filterfind.net if you had to. He's a liquidator of barely or never used camera filters with quite a variety on his shelves, and obviously sells and ships via the internet too.

As far as those really dark B&W red filters equivalent to Wratten 29, I've used em for near-infrared films like Konica IR, for color separation purposes, and with respect to certain now discontinued pan films like Bergger 200. The only films I might currently use this for are TMax, either speed. But I rarely carry one. The milder 25 red is a lot more versatile.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

I see you're in Sacto, but that's close enough for you to drive to Richmond to the warehouse of filterfind.net if you had to. He's a liquidator of barely or never used camera filters with quite a variety on his shelves, and obviously sells and ships via the internet too.

Thanks for that site... They have a few filters that might work for me.

If I go the used route, what are the designations for the B+W filters that have been used in the past for these B&W color contrast filters? Currently, Basic, before that F-Pro and what was before that? I see listings for B+W that don't appear to have the F-Pro badge, so I suspect they are from before that. Anyone know what came before? I am not to terribly converned about multicoating, but I definately want at least single coating, so I need to try to figure out where I should be stopping on B+H filter listings.

My impression is that a lot of these color filters didn't get MC until the F-Pro line, but that may be incorrect.

Second, I see "67" and "67E" designations for 67mm filters. Am I correct that the normal 67 designation is a thin filter and the 67E is a traditional "thick" filter?

Lastly, I am looking at a B+W filter catalogue (but I don't know what the age is because there is no date on it, but it does include the F-Pro filters, so it must not be too old). However, in the back it talks aobut the various mounting arrangements (WA filters, etc.) and it also includes flat glass filters in 75mm and 100mm sizes. I presume they are long gone now, but does anyone know if they are coated glass? I could use the 75mm filters on the GX617 because there is a filter slot in the lens hoods. That would eliminate one filter ring which would be very good on the 90mm. I'll search for them if they are likely to be coated.

 

[AgX]

Second, I see "67" and "67E" designations for 67mm filters. Am I correct that the normal 67 designation is a thin filter and the 67E is a traditional "thick" filter?

Typically in Germany "E" at filter designations means "threaded".

B+W too used this designation, however they got two different E-designations, depending on thread pitch.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Typically in Germany "E" at filter designations means "threaded".

B+W too used this designation, however they got two different E-designations, depending on thread pitch.

Thanks for that... What did B+W do when they had a non-front-threaded filter? The last thing I want os to be getting anything that doesn't have threads on the front because that will force the filter order, but maybe that won't be a real problem.

As I understand it, B+W has a normal filter and a "slim" filter, and then I suspect by special order, they have ones with no front threads, plus other odd arrangements, llike with a built in step-up ring.

My understanding is that the "E" ones are the thick filters, the non-"E" ones are slim, and I'm not clear what they do for ones with no front thread.

 

[AgX]

As I said E means threaded, and B+W applied this too, in detail. Their non-vignetting ones were designated E slim.
There was only one design of non-vignetting filters, and this was off-the-shelf.

In case you got information of a different meaning, this must have been applied the last years.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Michael - You do need to be careful to double check what B&W actually means by any given product number, because certain numbers might mean something entirely different in other filter brands.

 

[AgX]

I see no reaon to go for their slim version in case it is hard to find or expensive. A bigger filter and a thread adapter can yield same effect.

 

[Sirius Glass]

As I posted before I have B+W, Hasselblad an Heliopan B60 filters, many of them I purchased used. For infrared I have the R25A in B60 and I bought Hoya R23, R27, R29 and R72 67mm filters and use a B60-67mm adapter.

 

[Pieter12]

Slim filters are nice for wide-angle lenses, no issues with possible vignetting. On the other hand, snap-in lens caps don't have as much thread to grab on to and can come off easily when not intended.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Slim filters are nice for wide-angle lenses, no issues with possible vignetting. On the other hand, snap-in lens caps don't have as much thread to grab on to and can come off easily when not intended.

But if one uses B60 filters, the lens caps which uses a bayonet rather than threads, easily goes on. Once a threaded filter is attached to a Hasselblad lens the Hasselblad lens caps will not attach. There is no non-bayonet snap on lens cap that will attach to a Hasselblad lens.

 

[Pieter12]

But if one uses B60 filters, the lens caps which uses a bayonet rather than threads, easily goes on. Once a threaded filter is attached to a Hasselblad lens the Hasselblad lens caps will not attach. There is no non-bayonet snap on lens cap that will attach to a Hasselblad lens.

My SWC lens hood acts as a filter retainer, too. And I have a snap-in lens hood that fits the hood. The best of both worlds.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My SWC lens hood acts as a filter retainer, too. And I have a snap-in lens hood that fits the hood. The best of both worlds.

Nice

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...As I understand it, B+W has a normal filter and a "slim" filter, and then I suspect by special order, they have ones with no front threads...

Slim filters are nice for wide-angle lenses, no issues with possible vignetting. On the other hand, snap-in lens caps don't have as much thread to grab on to and can come off easily when not intended.

B+W's slim filter line is discontinued. I picked up several different sizes a few years ago (UV only; if there were ever contrast color filters made as "slim" they were long gone by then) for some unique physical camera/lens combinations.

B+W slim filters had rings of slightly larger outer diameter with no front threads. They came with matching shallow, slip-on lens caps that fit no other filters. Here's B&H's listing for the 67mm B+W slim UV filter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/132976-REG/B_W_66026939_67mm_UV_Haze_010.html​

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

B+W slim filters had rings of slightly larger outer diameter with no front threads.

OK, thanks. I think that is pretty clearly a "slim" filter as they called it. It''s labelled right on the side.

I think that leaves me with the question "what is the real difference between a 67E and a 67?" I think the 67E has a deeper ring with threads, and the 67 has a slihtly shallower ring, but still with threads. So in essence, one is a normal-style old fitler and the other is the newer semi-slim style, but not a true "slim" as those are without front threads.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

 

[AgX]

I guess that they just left out the E for practical reason. It only makes sense at ordering and at boxing. The moment one can see the E on the ring it makes no sense putting it there.

 

[BrianShaw]

I guess that they just left out the E for practical reason. It only makes sense at ordering and at boxing. The moment one can see the E on the ring it makes no sense putting it there.

Seems like confusing nomenclature!

This B+W document seems to refer to E and MRC as coatings.

https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-optics/b-w-filters/mounts

PROFESSIONAL LINE (F-PRO)

• F-Pro and special mounts
• Large selection of diameters and filter types
• Optionally coated with E or MRC
• Suitable for wide-angle
• Combinable

And this page explains E as single-coated and MRC as multi-coated.

https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-optics/b-w-filters/coating-systems

The B+W filter handbook discusses both mounts and coatings starting on page 56, and refers to single-coating but does not use the E nomenclature.

https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/C1x9LZAkTES.pdf

 

[BMbikerider]

I can not for the life of me wonder why we all seem to need the 'finest' filters. To get them will cost a lot of money and I ask for our use is it actually necessary. I have only two multicoated filters in my stock and in normal use I fail to see any difference unless I deliberately include direct sun in the view. In fact for B&W I use Cokin acrylic 'P' range and have never found them to be any worse or indeed better than the top of the range pale yellow 62mm and a 77mm UV from B&W.
Yes there will be differences, but for the amateur user which I and almost certainly a good number of others on the forum use them will they really be able to tell the difference?

 

[AgX]

Seems like confusing nomenclature!

This B+W document seems to refer to E and MRC as coatings.

https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-optics/b-w-filters/mounts

You are perfectly right, I overlooked this. But this shows the B+W bullshit !

-) In the past E was the ordering information for "screw-in". And ES for samed, but diffetent pitch. In a time when they did not have different coatings. And it was printed on the ring.
-) Now they state on their "coating" page that E stands for for the single-layer coating.
-) However, on their current product listing, on same site, they range uncoated and single-layer coated as "Basic", same as their MRC-coated ones. And this I posted above.

This is not the first time B+W use same designation on the ring in diffeent meaning, one time in even contrary meaning (discussed by me in a recent thread).


I only buy old, used filters, from a period when designations were not yet contradictory. Would I have to buy new one now due to this confusion I would refrain of one from B+W.

No idea whether at other manufacturers there is such confusion too...

 

[Pieter12]

I can not for the life of me wonder why we all seem to need the 'finest' filters. To get them will cost a lot of money and I ask for our use is it actually necessary. I have only two multicoated filters in my stock and in normal use I fail to see any difference unless I deliberately include direct sun in the view. In fact for B&W I use Cokin acrylic 'P' range and have never found them to be any worse or indeed better than the top of the range pale yellow 62mm and a 77mm UV from B&W.
Yes there will be differences, but for the amateur user which I and almost certainly a good number of others on the forum use them will they really be able to tell the difference?

I guess it depends on the lenses you use with the filters. It seems a waste to put a questionable filter on a good Leica, Schneider or Zeiss lens. You paid big bucks for the lens quality, why compromise it? There is also the question of consistency, so you know you will be getting the same effect from different size filters of the same color. Oh, and have you ever had the joy of removing a stuck filter? Happens less with the better ones.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Optionally coated with E or MRC

OK, that may be it. I hadn't seen that in the brochure that I found but I'll bet that was what they meant by that on older filters.

It's weird because in the "lens caps" section on page 56 of the PDF link you provided, they talk about the "E" designation without really getting into what it means. I think that's the only place they mention it in the brochure, it talks about specific caps fitting the "E" filters, implying that the E designation is related to the thickness of the filter ring.