b and w sharpenning workflow

[Ray Heath]

why ask him why so much?

It would be far better if you'd just give him some pointers, yea?

ah, because he is maybe on the wrong track and needs to clarify his thinking and requirements

why not ask him questions? he started the thread, he should be more specific

why are you questioning me?

 

[Ray Heath]

Perhaps sharpening is "required" after a scan but NEVER if the image is received fresh from a DSLR. Sharpening must always be last, and never applied to a mastered image that will be archived.

says who?

why?

 

[jd callow]

I've tried that technique before but I thought it only worked with colour.
Is it also applicable to b&w sharpening?

Yes, sorry my reading comprehension went on holiday. LAB sharpening is best with colour or toned images. The high pass technique works will with greyscale images, but can increase contrast and therefore require that the image layer be a bit flatter to work.

FWIW I don't sharpen until the very end. I don't sharpen during the scan nor immediately after. Sharpening can create artifacts that get amplified when sizing, colour correcting and adjusting contrast in additionally it can impede noise reduction. I have also used mild USM prior to resizing when down sizing in steps -- CS1 made this obsolete

 

[nsouto]

So why does a scanned negative need to be sharpened? Does the scanning process introduce softening of the focus? Is there a low-pass filter, or anti-moire filter being used by the scanner? Is capture of an image via scanning akin to a DSLR sensor capturing an image? I know when DSLR captured images need to be scanned but I thought analog to digital via scan was a different kettle of fish.

Please enlighten me someone.

This is a start of the explanation of why scanned film needs to be sharpened. It's not just negatives, it's all types of film.
If you do some more googling on the subject, there are other sites with more technical detail.

Bottom line is: if the final scanned image does not appear sharp when viewed in a screen at 100% zoom, you should consider sharpening via software. In particular, if you intend to print a scanned image on an inkjet printer, you should definitely consider extra sharpening.

 

[nsouto]

FWIW I don't sharpen until the very end. I don't sharpen during the scan nor immediately after. Sharpening can create artifacts that get amplified when sizing, colour correcting and adjusting contrast in additionally it can impede noise reduction.

Same here. It's usually the last step before final image output, be that print or screen. IME, it's a killer if done during or immediately after the scan: it'll stop most of the post-processing - namely noise reduction - from working properly.

 

[Graham06]

I've yet to see a better tool to sharpen scans than
Focus Magic. Look it up.

I second that opinion.

I have and epson 4990. This is what I do:
-use epson scan
-adjust min and max so range is covered without clipping
-scan at 4800 dpi, 16 bpp (6x6 negative is about 10,000x10,000 pixels and 300+ MB)
-in photoshop scale image to 50%. This is visibly better than a 2400 scan and a 4800 scan has no more detail than a 2400 scan
-in focus magic filter always use 175-250% amount,
-adjust blur radius to suit (about 3 pixels for scanned negatives with above steps)

focus magic is better than unsharp mask, and a bit better than the latest phtoshop sharpen stuff ( some may argue equivalent with slightly different character)

just this evening I compared a delta100 negative scan with a scan of an 8x8 print of that negative. The print had very slightly more information, but my enlarger lens is not the best. I was stopped down two stops, and the lens is not _that_ bad.

 

[SilverGlow]

Ray,

Most experts, if not all, tell us that sharpening is required after image capture. That includes scanning from film. Normally this is one of the first steps in post processing. A final sharpening at output sized is also recommended.

There are a lot of methods for sharpening at both stages. Do some research on the web for details and opinions. It's a complex subject that needs consideration based on ones personal tastes, experience and targeted output.

Don Bryant

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

NO credible expert has ever said sharpening should be done early or first after anytime of capture. And in fact, that is the worse thing one can do.

It is far better to apply sharpening LAST, just before output to a printer, or publish to the web. And one must never apply sharpening to an archived masterd image regardless of capture method.

 

[SilverGlow]

That's not the case if one is shooting RAW.

Don Bryant

Yes correct....I should have mentioned "jpg capture".

 

[SilverGlow]

says who?

why?

Says those in the know. Sharpening damages. It is far better to do it last. And frankly, the amount of sharpening, the values of the USM parameters is a function of the output, the size, where it will be output'd to (PC monitor, printer, type of paper, size of the print). I prefer to leave those little pixels alone as long as I can, even if I often use layers and masks, and in fact I almost never sharpen the entire image, but rather use a layer and masks so that I can "paint" in sharpening in just those crucial areas. Too often sharpening can remove the magic, the buttery smoothness of "Leica/Zeist" background bokeh.

 

[jd callow]

There are ways to sharpen on an adjustment layer which make it nondestructive and there are two main reasons to sharpen 1) to 'recapture' details that are softened in the scanning process or to pull detail out whether it is due to scanning or other issues and 2) to optimize the image for final output.

 

[sanking]

Sharpening is one of the greater arts of Photoshop. People who know how to do this well are true masters of the program.

For the rest of us you might want toi consider a software program called PhotoKit Sharpener. It is a very powerful tool and does a much better job of sharpening than I can do on my own. It applies sharpening in three stages, capture, creative and output. At any stage you get lots of layers that you can save or discard so the process can be undone until you flatten the image and save it.

Sandy King.

There are ways to sharpen on an adjustment layer which make it nondestructive and there are two main reasons to sharpen 1) to 'recapture' details that are softened in the scanning process or to pull detail out whether it is due to scanning or other issues and 2) to optimize the image for final output.

 

[Ray Heath]

... a software program called PhotoKit Sharpener. It is a very powerful tool and does a much better job of sharpening than I can do on my own. Sandy King.

g'day all

Sandy, can you explain how and why a third party program is better than PS sharpening?

can you post examples?

 

[pellicle]

Ray

g'day all

Sandy, can you explain how and why a third party program is better than PS sharpening?

can you post examples?

perhaps you misunderstand, the 3rd party program is a plug-in for PS

there is nothing it does you can't but then the same can be said of many software systems (like the automated inversion of negatives for your in scanner software). If you're across layer sharpening then you'll be understanding what it does and can do it yourself. Its just time consuming to do it by hand.

 

[Ray Heath]

Ray



perhaps you misunderstand, the 3rd party program is a plug-in for PS

there is nothing it does you can't but then the same can be said of many software systems (like the automated inversion of negatives for your in scanner software). If you're across layer sharpening then you'll be understanding what it does and can do it yourself. Its just time consuming to do it by hand.

yeh, thnx but how is it any better than PS's own unsharp mask?

isn't a "plug-in for PS" a program not necessarily from Adobe that runs with-in PS?

can you post exapmles?

 

[sanking]

Ray,

First, to repeat which Pellicle already stated, Photokit Sharpener is a Photoshop plug-in that works in Photoshop. It uses the unsharp mask feature of Photoshop, and many other features in Photoshop that some are not aware of.

Unsharp mask is just one of many sharpening features that one can apply. in fact, some of the best Photoshop workers never use unsharp mask at all in their sharpening routines.

Some of the other sharpening effects in addition to edge sharpening, which would be unsharp mask, are luminance sharpening and high pass sharpening. Then there are sharpening and smoothing brushes.

I personally rarely use unsharp mask as I find that high pass and luminance sharpening are more pleasing to my eye.

No, I don't plan to provide any examples or samples because they would be useless conveyed on the web when final output is a print.


Sandy King

yeh, thnx but how is it any better than PS's own unsharp mask?

isn't a "plug-in for PS" a program not necessarily from Adobe that runs with-in PS?

can you post exapmles?

 

[Kerik]

Just a heads up that Photokit Sharpener does not yet work with 64-bit CS4. They say they're working on the 64-bit version. When it's ready, I look forward to trying it out.

 

[pellicle]

yeh, thnx but how is it any better than PS's own unsharp mask?

isn't a "plug-in for PS" a program not necessarily from Adobe that runs with-in PS?

can you post exapmles?

yes I can, but can you tell me why I should spend 45 minutes to prepare a presentation for you when you could play with it yourself and see?

what will I get out of it (all to often its just involved in further arguments)

 

[pellicle]

Ray

because I'm a nice guy

here is an example

but you really need to brush up on the manners as the word please does not go astray and we're not your uni tutors here

 

[Ray Heath]

thnx, though i don't think it's a question of my manners, it's maybe a question of more unsubstantiated claims posted without any explanation, example or proof

 

[donbga]

thnx, though i don't think it's a question of my manners, it's maybe a question of more unsubstantiated claims posted without any explanation, example or proof

Ray,

It's a little difficult to provide examples of sharpening (good or bad) through the web and even at home on ones monitor. To accurately judge the effects of sharpening a print needs to made. Accurate assessment of sharpening can't be judged merely on screen.

Jeff Shewe, who is one of the gurus that worked with Bruce Fraiser and others to create PhotoKit Sharpener, suggests that viewing the sharpened image on screen at a 25% magnification will give the viewer some idea if the image is sharpened properly (including whether it is over sharpened).

Generally speaking PhotoKit Sharpener uses PS actions to build edge masks and detail masks to be used with the Smart Sharpening filter and possibly the Unsharp mask filter. If you are familiar with the latest versions of ACR you can actually see how the Detail and Edge sharpening masks work.

The late Bruce Fraiser outlined a three pass sharpening method online and in his book "Real World Sharpening" The basic steps are capture sharpening, creative sharpening, and output sharpening. He even provides the steps needed for one to create the Detail and Edge sharpening masks which are available online.

As I mentioned to you before here on HybridPhoto, sharpening is a complex process and simply making a global sharpening adjustment using the unsharp mask really doesn't produce the best sharpening results.

You can download a trial version of PhotoKit Sharpener and play with it yourself to get a feel for how it works. Checkout the PixelGenius website for more details:

http://www.pixelgenius.com/sharpener/

One other thing that I'll mention is that if you visit the site you will notice that PKS is endorsed by Nash Editions. The main guru at Nash Editions (whose name escapes me now) has a very nice workflow outline for digital editing posted on his web site. It's worth taking a look at for some valuable tips about the proper steps for digital editing.



Don Bryant

 

[pellicle]

thnx, though i don't think it's a question of my manners, it's maybe a question of more unsubstantiated claims posted without any explanation, example or proof

well (unless you don't have access to any versions of photoshop) its not like you can't conduct some tests yourself. If your after fingers in the spear holes experience you'll need to look at a PSD file and turn on and turn off layers. I started with one such example, but it quickly turned into 18 meg (too big to post here).

perhaps I've missed it, but just (specifically) what is it that you don't believe / need proof of / can't check out yourself?

if its methods your looking for then a quick google reveals one or two sources of information quickly

if that's not on target with what you need 'verified' please put that in writing here so I can have a better understanding of what it is that you're asking (as presently I think its just whats wrong with global sharpening in photoshop using USM / smart sharpen / sharpen edges or something like that

 

[pellicle]

Don

Checkout the PixelGenius website for more details:

http://www.pixelgenius.com/sharpener/

One other thing that I'll mention is that if you visit the site you will notice that PKS is endorsed by Nash Editions. The main guru at Nash Editions (whose name escapes me now) has a very nice workflow outline for digital editing posted on his web site.

I had a look about for that, and interestingly found this, which was a nice read and about 80% of what I presently do. It was especially nice to have it all encapsulated in one point though as some of has been evolved over a significant time (and as I do use mainly one or two films and one or two capture devices).

 

[jd callow]

Ray,

It's a little difficult to provide examples of sharpening (good or bad) through the web and even at home on ones monitor. To accurately judge the effects of sharpening a print needs to made. Accurate assessment of sharpening can't be judged merely on screen.

Jeff Shewe, who is one of the gurus that worked with Bruce Fraiser and others to create PhotoKit Sharpener, suggests that viewing the sharpened image on screen at a 25% magnification will give the viewer some idea if the image is sharpened properly (including whether it is over sharpened).

Generally speaking PhotoKit Sharpener uses PS actions to build edge masks and detail masks to be used with the Smart Sharpening filter and possibly the Unsharp mask filter. If you are familiar with the latest versions of ACR you can actually see how the Detail and Edge sharpening masks work.

The late Bruce Fraiser outlined a three pass sharpening method online and in his book "Real World Sharpening" The basic steps are capture sharpening, creative sharpening, and output sharpening. He even provides the steps needed for one to create the Detail and Edge sharpening masks which are available online.

As I mentioned to you before here on HybridPhoto, sharpening is a complex process and simply making a global sharpening adjustment using the unsharp mask really doesn't produce the best sharpening results.

You can download a trial version of PhotoKit Sharpener and play with it yourself to get a feel for how it works. Checkout the PixelGenius website for more details:

http://www.pixelgenius.com/sharpener/

One other thing that I'll mention is that if you visit the site you will notice that PKS is endorsed by Nash Editions. The main guru at Nash Editions (whose name escapes me now) has a very nice workflow outline for digital editing posted on his web site. It's worth taking a look at for some valuable tips about the proper steps for digital editing.



Don Bryant

Really good post. Great information including the PDF pellicle linked to.

 

[donbga]

Really good post. Great information including the PDF pellicle linked to.

Here is a link to a PDF file written by Jeff Shewe that is a very good easy on sharpening

http://www.pixelgenius.com/tips/schewe-sharpening.pdf

In the article Jeff addresses the problems associated with global application of the PS Unsharp Mask filter.

Don

 

[2F/2F]

I have tried all sorts of methods, and the one I like the most was a high pass filter on a separate layer, with the blend mode set to soft light. This allows you to do all the things you can do with a layer, such as masking (meaning selective application of the sharpening using the brush tool or any other selection tool), and opacity changes. It is incredibly valuable being able to have different levels of sharpening (or no sharpening at all) on different areas of the picture. I would generally oversharpen about double what I think it should be, and then fine tune the over all level by reducing the opacity. Then I would generally mask or partially mask the layer over the out of focus areas, and/or any areas where I want a little less sharpening going on. Once again, you can use the brush tool in its numerous incarnations to do this. Before you do it, you have to create a top layer that consists of all the other layers merged, and then apply the filter to that top layer. Is it Shift-Control-Option-E to make that top layer? It has been so long since I used PS that I forgot the shortcut. There is definitely an E involved, though I forgot exactly which of the shift, function, control, option, command, etc keys are involved.

P.S. The Photoshop I have is 7.0, so there may be other options on the newer ones. All I know is that this is a great method for me, however.