Azo and Kodachrome, it does not make sense to me.

Craig

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I've tried Portra based on your comments, PE, and I quite like it. The only problem is there is no one left in the province who will process anything larger than 120 in C41, so I have to send it to Vancouver. For the volumes I shoot that's not too practical.

I still love Kodachrome, and I shoot it as my main colour film. I generally use Ilford films for B&W, but Xtol for developing. I'll use Kodachrome as long as its lasts, but I'm enough of a realist to know that its future is limited. I only tried Azo once, and I wasn't to inpressed. I've still got most of a box that I should sell off since I'm unlikely to ever use it.

I've not engaged in the Kodak bashing, but it does appear as a corporation that thy have lost their way. Its sad to see a once strong and dominant company fall so fast.

On Apug a little presence and PR could probably go a long way to give Kodak the warm fuzzies like Simon has done with Ilford. It seems that its not the news that matters, but how its delivered. An example is 220 film, where Simon expalined how its just not possible and most people accepted that. At least his explinations kills the rumours and conspiricy theorists!
 

TheFlyingCamera

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Ron-

nowadays I shoot so little color film that I never tried to get any free film from the latest giveaway round. My point was simply that there are a LOT of things Kodak could do to restore the warm fuzzy, and they're not doing any of it. Fuji, well... they were never a warm-and-fuzzy kind of company in the first place, but in a cool and corporate way, they have re-affirmed their commitment to supporting film. I don't know about tech support from either, as I have never used it, from Kodak OR Fuji. Kodak has, for whatever reason fair or otherwise, earned a degree of suspicion, and it will take some effort to undo it. I'm more than willing to listen, and more than willing to be supportive, and I'm not going to bash Kodak for killing off expensive niche products. Just a bit of outreach would be good.
 

c6h6o3

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Photo Engineer said:
Curt;

The story of the last master roll of Azo is a mystery with 3 or more different stories including one in which it was not up to specs. The product was cancelled. What more can I say.
Click to expand...

I, along with most Azo printers I know, have moved on. I'm investigating other papers and processes. As soon as I find a combination that gives me better prints I'll sell my Azo stash.

When Kodak discontinues TMY, which I know that they will almost certainly do in my lifetime, I'll use someone else's film. I just don't understand how everyone can get so bent out of shape over a commodity like film or paper. If something you bought last year is no longer made, buy something else. If you can't adapt at least that much, can you really say that you are a master of your craft?
 
OP
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Scott, C6; I can agree with all you said.

Scott, my comment about goodies was a bit tongue in cheek and I used a similey there to indicate it.

PE
 

Alex Hawley

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Yep. Pretty well sums it up for me too. My Azo is gone and today I'm working with my last bit of Polymax Fine Art, then its gone forever too. Oh Well.

Thirty-some years ago, about 1973, I worked with an old guy who still hadn't gotten over the demise of the Ford Model T. Oh Well to that too.
 

Terence

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gr82bart said:
OK so now you are Kodak's MJ Hellyar and her marketing department VP. What would you do? No hypotheticals, no theory, no generalities, no going back in time, no 20/20 - step by step, what would you do now?

Regards, Art.
Click to expand...

Given that film still provides about half their revenue, maybe I'd try to market to the faithful. As I said, their website barely mentions film and has almost no direct links to their film products, much less the technical info for their film. Until about a year ago, they had a link to technical data two "clicks" away from their main page. PE has said before that their LF sales are more stable than 35mm or MF. So where is the link providing info to their LF products.

Maybe they could show up here and give us a rough idea of where they are heading. maybe they could set up a real system of special orders, rather than having us organize a begging campaign for them to do a special order even after fulfilling their supposed $10,000 minimum.

Maybe they could stop bullsh!tting about what is being discontinued.

Taking their clientele for granted, and basically lying the few times they do communicate does not make for a dedicated customer.
 

ilya1963

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Hi Ron,

I don't have a lot to add here just couple of observations

I have never once loaded my cameras with FUJI for one reason , I don't like SUBARU

FUJI is a heavy industry company which makes cars and trucks, bicycles...

I am not sure why they are in business with film , that is a very small part of their business

In the late 80's, early 90's Subaru was almost out of business , mysteriously Toyota, Honda, Nissan all pulled their All-Wheel drive cars of the market , that was the only thing that kept Subaru in business


Market share , brand recognition , diversification of products , fluid finances make company flexible to make quick changes...


When I was growing up in Russia , yellow boxes were worth about the same amount as LEVI Jeans, they were worth six moths of work ...
Kodak was a Stature of Liberty, World Trade Center in the eyes of the eastern block


With big business a lot of decisions are made up stairs based on a graph , not on a showroom floor

For years GM and Ford and Chrysler were in business selling FRANCHISES , that is why you can see one of their dealerships in every town around the country , in some cases they selling the same product competing against each other(GMC vs... Chevy) in the end they cared very little about their dealer.
Execs. were getting paid millions in salaries and had no idea what was going on the floor...
__________________
Azo is one of the greatest papers I have ever worked with...

T-max400 is one of the grates films...
but I will not buy it if I have to buy it in 10 sheet boxes (8x10)
I think that is a mistake , can you tell me WHY they going to be packaging it this way for the new film, if it is to get more money for this stuff , just raise the cost of it but don't try to hide it..


JUST RANTING
ILYA
 

roteague

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ilya1963 said:
I have never once loaded my cameras with FUJI for one reason , I don't like SUBARU
Click to expand...

Toyota owns Subaru, not Fuji. They bought it from GM. Fuji Film is not part of Fuji Heavy Industries AFAIK (Ron can probably answer this). The only thing about Fuji Film that bothers me, is that 100% of their corporate executives is Japanese (typical for a Japanese company).
 

ilya1963

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Toyota now has some interest in the Subaru , but they do not OWN it , you are right , they build some of them in the Kentuky at the Camry plant...

May be we should approch Toyota to make AZO
 
OP
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Subaru, Datsun and Toyota brands were in production as Japanese companies in the 50s. I saw some of the eariler models while in SEA.

How did Fuji get into film? A long sad story. Konishiroku was the leading film manufacturer in Japan in the 30s and 40s. They had strong ties to EK and Konishiroku Emon, the founder, was a friend of George Eastman's. During the war, Konica began making Agfa type films and papers, in both color and B&W. Their plant was then in Hachioji near the steel mills.

On overcast days, when our bombers could not see the steel mills, they wanted to use them and so 'awarded' them to the Konica plant right next to the mill, which was better visible.

Konica engineers had no work after the bombing, and so they made whiskey in special vats and sold it in Hachioji. It was called Konisky. After the war, the plant was totally rebuilt, but burned down in a flash solvent fire in the late 50s. Eventually, the Mitsubishi company bought their debts and they became part of the Mitsubishi family. Paper support came from Mitsubishi paper mills and Mitsubishi and Konica shared formulas.

Now, during this time of woe for what was once a great company, Fuji was a tiny maker of film support in Ashigara, far from the war effort by comparison. The government, in need of film, approached Fuji and asked them to coat film for the government and Fuji expanded their coating facility to do the job. As Konica tried to get back on their feet, Fuji continued to grow. They are, what they are today because of history.

This story comes in part from Dr. Yasuo Wakabayshi and Dr. Hirozo Ueda both vice presidents and directors of research at Konica and Fuji respectively. I can guarantee its authenticity 100%.

BTW, Konica people liked to joke about the company name. It means Little West Six in English and they compared it to East Man. Hachioji means Eight little charaters IIRC. They couldn't make much of that comparing it to Rochester.

PE
 
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roteague

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ilya1963 said:
Toyota now has some interest in the Subaru , but they do not OWN it , you are right , they build some of them in the Kentuky at the Camry plant...

May be we should approch Toyota to make AZO
Click to expand...

They own a controlling interest. That is the same thing.
 

ilya1963

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RObert,

If you open a car door on any Subaru and look at a plate with the VIN#

IT says FUJI INDUSTRIES ....

And if you have something against Japanese , you should reconcider , I have been with Toyota for twenty five years , they will own the world , they almost there now ....

ILYA
 

roteague

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I have nothing against the Japanese, except I consider Toyota to be the scum of the earth.
 

ilya1963

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"I consider Toyota to be the scum of the earth"

_______________________________________________________________

Why?

May be I could learn something from you.

________________________________________________________________
How did Fuji get into film? A long sad story. Konishiroku was the leading film manufacturer in Japan in the 30s and 40s. They had strong ties to EK and Konishiroku Emon, the founder, was a friend of George Eastman's. During the war, Konica began making Agfa type films and papers, in both color and B&W. Their plant was then in Hachioji near the steel mills.

On overcast days, when our bombers could not see the steel mills, they wanted to use them and so 'awarded' them to the Konica plant right next to the mill, which was better visible.

Konica engineers had no work after the bombing, and so they made whiskey in special vats and sold it in Hachioji. It was called Konisky. After the war, the plant was totally rebuilt, but burned down in a flash solvent fire in the late 50s. Eventually, the Mitsubishi company bought their debts and they became part of the Mitsubishi family. Paper support came from Mitsubishi paper mills and Mitsubishi and Konica shared formulas.

Now, during this time of woe for what was once a great company, Fuji was a tiny maker of film support in Ashigara, far from the war effort by comparison. The government, in need of film, approached Fuji and asked them to coat film for the government and Fuji expanded their coating facility to do the job. As Konica tried to get back on their feet, Fuji continued to grow. They are, what they are today because of history.

This story comes in part from Dr. Yasuo Wakabayshi and Dr. Hriozo Ueda both vice presidents and directors of research at Konica and Fuji respectively. I can guarantee its authenticity 100%."


FAscinating story...

ILYA
 

roteague

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ilya1963 said:
"I consider Toyota to be the scum of the earth"

_______________________________________________________________

Why?

May be I could learn something from you.
Click to expand...

Look into their business practices sometime. I don't intend to get details on this on this forum, it isn't the place for it.
 

roteague

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ilya1963 said:
If you open a car door on any Subaru and look at a plate with the VIN#

IT says FUJI INDUSTRIES ....
Click to expand...

Toyota also bought a controlling interest in Isuzu (to get GM's diesel engine technology). That is just the way things are done in Japan - companies buy little pieces of their suppliers.
 
OP
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Kodak once made the best copier and copier engine in the business and for it got all kinds of awards.

To save money, they contracted with Canon to make the engine and copier. Canon did just that, but the agreement was specific to that engine. Once they had the rights and the actual engine models, Canon went on to develop their own improved version. They sold it at a lower cost and undercut the Kodak model thus driving Kodak out of the copier business.

It is more complex than that just as most similar stories. But that story contains most of the substance. There is a similar story behind part of the reason for the Kodak exit from B&W papers, I am told, but I would really be boiled in oil or sued if I put it in print. In any event, it would reveal sources in part and it would be part speculation as well.

So, all is not clean and neat like it is in the jolly old land of OZ. There is a wicked witch of the east, west, north and south that are all out there in businessland.

PE
 

ilya1963

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How did photography become a big business back in the day , and how did we all become so dependent on a mass produced products that now are being pulled off the shelf...

How did we let cars and trucks so much part of our lives that we can not live without , behind all this is oil

hybrids and electric cars are just a tiz
 

ilya1963

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This makes me feel very nostalgic for Edward Weston's time when he did not even have a drivers license and spent his time writing in day books rather then on the computer...

So where to from here?

Coat paper and film , back to 1840's ,

I am going to Denmark to join Gandolfi ..., I wish I could.

ILYA
 

gr82bart

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Terence said:
Given that film still provides about half their revenue, maybe I'd try to market to the faithful. As I said, their website barely mentions film

<snip>

basically lying the few times they do communicate does not make for a dedicated customer.
Click to expand...
OK I get it now. You actually believe us amateur still film users make up half their business. Terrance, we don't. Not even close.

This whole thing about lying and weaseling is something you and I will never agree on. To me they didn't lie. Did I wish they said "I don't know?" Sure, but I ain't going to go postal verbally over it.

Just a note I'd like to point out: Here's Fuji's global English language website. Look for yourselves: http://www.fujifilm.com/ Exactly how does one 'measure' the Kodak website as "barely mentions film" in comparison to Fuji's website? Just exactly how much more 'easy' is it to find film products on their website? Oh and I see the technical information is just oozing.

Where's the head of Fuji's film division on APUG? Someone tell me Fuji's 1-800 number so that I can order 15 sheets of 13" x 27" because apparently one has to beg Kodak to get that and spend $10k too, but not with Fuji ...

Regards, Art.
 
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OP
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I have been searching for the contact printing paper that Fuji makes and have had over 3000 'hits' with their search engine and all that I could view were digital. I tried several different criteria, and came up dry except for digital paper, digital camera, digital inks and etc.

PE
 

DBP

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I think the frustration with Kodak among Americans stems from having grown up with Kodak products and seemingly endless strange Kodak distribution decisions. We have all seen products we were using regularly seemingly disappear from the market for no apparent reason, often long before they were officially canceled. For those of us in the USA, all those stories relate to Kodak, because Ilford, Fuji, Agfa, and others were not major factors in the market until fairly recently.

One very old example - When I was a teen I used an Argoflex TLR as my everyday camera, occasionally supplemented by my dad's Nikkormat if I begged enough. Suddenly, in 1978, the local camera stores told us that Kodak had stopped making 620 film (officially it was in production until 1995, but I never seemed to be able to find it in the pre-internet days). So I was reduced to borrowing my dad's camera or not taking pics. That in turn cut down on the amount of photographing I was doing. A few years later Kodak introduced disc film - a product with no apparent purpose other than to make people buy new cameras that were not as good as the old. So my impression of Kodak was that they wouldn't bother to produce a useful product I still needed, but were putting money into junk for the mass market. I am sure many people have had a similar experience with some product Kodak pushed, then abandoned. Over the last few years I have seen the film shelves of many local stores turn from yellow to green, which just reinforces the impression of abandonment.

By contrast, most American's experiences with Fuji and Ilford have been with a company that added products to a market where the essentials were already provided by Kodak. So the other companies tend to be treated as purveyors of luxury goods while Kodak seems like a utility. And people get much angrier at having their electricity cut off than their cable TV, to make a bad analogy. Add to that the difficulty in finding information on film on Kodak's own web site, and you have a situation in which the company's own marketing makes its customers worry that products can disappear at any time.
 
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