Avoiding backing paper issues with cold storage?

[Blimeyo]

Recently, a friend of mine had shot a roll of 120 Portra 400 that expired in 2018. He claimed that it was refrigerated in its original wrapper foil with silicon gels inside of a ziplock bag for several years. Unfortunately the roll came out looking damaged by condensation or a moldy backing paper.

As fujifilm is on the trajectory of discontinuing emulsions while kodak is hiking prices year on year, I have begun refrigerating and freezing different films within both comparements of my home refrigerator. This incident has certainly invoked a sense of paranoia that all the effort might be in vain.

Currently, my rolls are in their original propack packaging, sleeved into individual ziplock bags, and placed in another bigger ziplock bag for ease of movement. I would move any film from the freezer to the fridge comparment in their individually sleeved ziplocks for a few hours, before taking it out completely to cool to room temperature. I do the same for the films in the fridge comparment. The only concern I have noticed is the condensation of light water droplets on both the individual sleeves and bigger exterior ziplocks.

While I have yet to have any issues with any of my current rolls, I'll like to ask what had went wrong in the case of my friend? Are there any issues with my method and how can I prevent such a disaster from happening? Thank you ahead of time!

 

[koraks]

Refrigerating/freezing in itself is not really the problem. As you noticed, it's the condensation that occurs as the film is brought back up to temperature. If the film was sealed in its foil wrappers in an environment with relatively high humidity, I don't think there's much you can do to prevent the problem. Perhaps ensure that temperature gradients are very, very gentle - your "freezer-fridge-room" routine sounds appropriate.

Sadly, keeping film (especially 120) around for an extended period of time has inherent risks associated with it. I've also noted various smaller and larger defects with e.g. factory-sealed Kodak 120 films.

Perhaps others have a silver bullet to offer; I'm afraid I don't!

 

[Don_ih]

Recently, a friend of mine had shot a roll of 120 Portra 400 that expired in 2018. He claimed that it was refrigerated in its original wrapper foil with silicon gels inside of a ziplock bag for several years. Unfortunately the roll came out looking damaged by condensation or a moldy backing paper.

The wrapper must have not been air-tight. Frankly, for long term storage, a refrigerator is a poor choice - even the freezer compartment - because the temperature fluctuates too much and the doors are opened too often. Any fluctuation of temperature (and it's pretty severe during the defrost cycle of a frost-free fridge) will allow condensation to occur. A deep freeze, however, just maintained at a very cold temperature and hardly ever opened (and when it is, if it's a chest freezer, the cold air doesn't "run out" to be replaced by warn,. moist air) will allow very little moisture to condense - and it will usually condense onto the walls of the freezer before anywhere else.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I agree that the wrapper must not have been air tight. I live in a dry climate, southern California, and I have been freezing film for over 20 years without a problem. One must be careful when thawing the film out and bringing back to ambient temperature.

 

[Blimeyo]

The wrapper must have not been air-tight. Frankly, for long term storage, a refrigerator is a poor choice - even the freezer compartment - because the temperature fluctuates too much and the doors are opened too often. Any fluctuation of temperature (and it's pretty severe during the defrost cycle of a frost-free fridge) will allow condensation to occur. A deep freeze, however, just maintained at a very cold temperature and hardly ever opened (and when it is, if it's a chest freezer, the cold air doesn't "run out" to be replaced by warn,. moist air) will allow very little moisture to condense - and it will usually condense onto the walls of the freezer before anywhere else.

That was my initial suspicion as well. I had rolls where the wrapper was looking worn with leaky holes from prolonged commute. I was mindful to use these first.

Regarding the fluctuation of temperature, would the defrost cycle be a problem should I get a dedicated film refrigerator that is rarely opened? I apologise, but I am confused whether you meant that only a chest frezer would allow little moisture to enter or simply the extent of access usage of the frosting device.

I agree that the wrapper must not have been air tight. I live in a dry climate, southern California, and I have been freezing film for over 20 years without a problem. One must be careful when thawing the film out and bringing back to ambient temperature.

I recently managed to acquire several individually boxed velvia 50 in 120 that expired in 1997. The seller was helping clear out an estate and said said it was found in a chest freezer. I shot it without much exceptations only to be surprised at how well it held up. Knowing this, I would hope to similarly preserve my current rolls of Velvia and Provia should Fuji pull the plug. Do you have any tips or insights on how you thaw the film to minise damage?

Refrigerating/freezing in itself is not really the problem. As you noticed, it's the condensation that occurs as the film is brought back up to temperature. If the film was sealed in its foil wrappers in an environment with relatively high humidity, I don't think there's much you can do to prevent the problem. Perhaps ensure that temperature gradients are very, very gentle - your "freezer-fridge-room" routine sounds appropriate.

Sadly, keeping film (especially 120) around for an extended period of time has inherent risks associated with it. I've also noted various smaller and larger defects with e.g. factory-sealed Kodak 120 films.

Perhaps others have a silver bullet to offer; I'm afraid I don't!

Thank you for the tips too!

 

[Don_ih]

I am confused whether you meant that only a chest frezer would allow little moisture to enter or simply the extent of access usage of the frosting device

A chest freezer is like a bucket of cold air. When the lid is opened, some of the warm, moist air from the room swirls into it, but not much. An upright freezer will have a lot of cold air "pour" out of it, since cold air is denser than warm air, and it will be replaced with warm, moist air from the room. The same happens with a fridge.

 

[Sirius Glass]

A chest freezer is like a bucket of cold air. When the lid is opened, some of the warm, moist air from the room swirls into it, but not much. An upright freezer will have a lot of cold air "pour" out of it, since cold air is denser than warm air, and it will be replaced with warm, moist air from the room. The same happens with a fridge.

Which is automatically dehumidified in my freezer and most available freezers. So humidity is not a problem in the freezer.

 

[Don_ih]

Which is automatically dehumidified in my freezer

The circulating fan will cause the moisture in the air to condense on the cooling coils - but it will first condense on whatever it encounters that is cold. The defrost cycle of a fridge-freezer melts the built-up ice and lets it trickle down to an evaporating pan near the condenser. Leave your fridge door open for 30 seconds and then feel to see if there is a slight layer of condensation on absolutely everything. There will be.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The circulating fan will cause the moisture in the air to condense on the cooling coils - but it will first condense on whatever it encounters that is cold. The defrost cycle of a fridge-freezer melts the built-up ice and lets it trickle down to an evaporating pan near the condenser. Leave your fridge door open for 30 seconds and then feel to see if there is a slight layer of condensation on absolutely everything. There will be.

And the dehumidifying feature will quickly eliminate the added humidity is a short time. You are arguing about a transitory change of insignificant period of time.

 

[DREW WILEY]

ZipLok bags are just a temporary partial seal. I knot polyethylene bags, and then knot another one over it. But if necessary, I have one of those food bagger systems which evacuate the air out of the bag, and then heat-weld seals the bag permanently shut until it's actually cut open. I've never lost any film due to being stored in the freezer. And its a big traditional chest freezer with no fancy features. But at the going rate, a single 10-sheet box of 8x10 color film would cost more than I paid for that new freezer; so I regard it as a wise investment.

 

[Don_ih]

And the dehumidifying feature will quickly eliminate the added humidity is a short time. You are arguing about a transitory change of insignificant period of time.

I wasn't arguing. You do realize there is no "dehumidifier" in a fridge - it happens to dehumidify by making airborne moisture condense due to the lower temperature. And your so-called "transitory change" happens how many times over the course of a year?
What there is in a frost-free fridge is a heater which will raise the temperature temporarily to melt the ice that's formed on the cooling coils. That will cause the humidity in the fridge to go up and cause condensation to form on everything that is already cold.

 

[markjwyatt]

A chest freezer is like a bucket of cold air. When the lid is opened, some of the warm, moist air from the room swirls into it, but not much. An upright freezer will have a lot of cold air "pour" out of it, since cold air is denser than warm air, and it will be replaced with warm, moist air from the room. The same happens with a fridge.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I wasn't arguing. You do realize there is no "dehumidifier" in a fridge - it happens to dehumidify by making airborne moisture condense due to the lower temperature. And your so-called "transitory change" happens how many times over the course of a year?
What there is in a frost-free fridge is a heater which will raise the temperature temporarily to melt the ice that's formed on the cooling coils. That will cause the humidity in the fridge to go up and cause condensation to form on everything that is already cold.

Yes, but I am avoiding a discussion of the thermodynamics of refrigeration and freezing.

I just looked up and see that my comment is too late!

 

[MattKing]

There are a number of steps you can take that help.
But there is nothing you can do to eliminate the problems that arise because film emulsions changed over the years, backing paper changed over the years, and the ink used on the paper changed over the years, and the multitude of combinations of all those factors means that some films have more problems with the interactions between all the parts than others do.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Same thing happens with diurnal cycles in the mountains, or humidity one day, a blizzard the next. One lives and photographs in either a freezer or sauna, or potentially both on the same trip. The film and its backing is still expected to work properly, and the photographer is still supposed to know how to keep things dry, including himself.

 

[Agulliver]

Is there any chance that 2018 Portra was one of the batches that Kodak know to have issues with the backing paper interacting with the emulsion?

I had this happen with a pack of Ektar from a similar timeframe, and spoke about it with them about a year ago. But it was also the subject of a significant thread here probably in 2020?

 

[foc]

Whether the foil wrapper was air tight or not, will not stop condensation inside the wrapper and on the film if the unfreezing was hurried. (condensation can occur inside the sealed foil wrapper)

As has been recommended, freezer to fridge to room temperature is the best procedure but time is needed as the temperature changes have to be gentle between each.

Living in a warm or hot climate brings added problems for the fridge to room phase. Sometimes moving the film from the coldest part of the fridge (usually the bottom) to the least coldest over a period of time can help prevent condensation.

The main thing to remember is that the transition from one temperature to another should be gradual.