Autographic paper backing

[StoneNYC]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I shoot on a bunch of old Kodak foldies which have an "autographic" feature, the film had a paper back that when pressed on, would allow you to expose a small window on the back of the camera with light and would imprint your film with notes like f stop or location or model name etc.

Anyone know what kind of backing paper it was and if it can be reproduced?

Thanks.


~Stone

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[StoneNYC]

Oh this would be for 120 & 116 size films which as we know have a 60mm width for 120 and 70mm width for 116

I have 620/616 foldies as well but the width and legnth are the same, that's just a spool issue, so just asking about the paper.


~Stone

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[Prof_Pixel]

I shoot on a bunch of old Kodak foldies which have an "autographic" feature, the film had a paper back that when pressed on, would allow you to expose a small window on the back of the camera with light and would imprint your film with notes like f stop or location or model name etc.

The Autographic film roll consisted of a tissue-like carbon paper sandwiched between the film and the paper backing. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autographic_film

 

[Jeff Searust]

The Autographic film roll consisted of a tissue-like carbon paper sandwiched between the film and the paper backing. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autographic_film

This is why when you see a print like this, the writing is white. You could undoubtedly do this on your own, respooling a carbon paper between backing and negative--- I would do a couple experiments to make sure whatever is used to write on the neg will last through the fixer.

I have written on negs after the fact (development) with a sharpie, and achieved a similar effect.

 

[AgX]

That quotation and the reference to Wikipedia do not explain the way an autograph is brought onto the film.
It seems to have worked this way:

-) the backing paper is of a kind that has reduced opacity
-) between film and backing paper is a carbon paper with the paper itself being transparent, with the carbon side facing the backing paper
-) the space for applying the autograph must give way for the backing paper to lift off from the carbon paper
-) whilst inscribing with a stylus the waxed carbon is transferred to the backing paper
-) after inscribing there is enough play between carbon and backing paper for light to enter via the two papers onto the film

 

[Prof_Pixel]

That quotation and the reference to Wikipedia do not explain the way an autograph is brought onto the film.

See one of the linked articles: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Photography-694/Autographic-Kodak.htm

 

[AgX]

My fault, I did not read beyond the references...

David Silver: the pressure of the scribe caused the inner carbon layer to compact and become transluscent under the tip of the scribe

Though that "compacting" of the carbon is for me hard to comprehend. At least less hard than the "play" between paper layers I hinted at.

 

[Worker 11811]

So, it is actually "burning" the writing into the negative? Interesting.

I have a couple of Autographic cameras and have occasionally thought of tinkering with them. This kind of renews my interest.

 

[joshgladstone]

I know this is an old thread, but I was curious about some of this stuff today, so I looked up the patents. They describe

"The inner face of this paper backing, that is the face adjoining invention consists in the construction, combination and ar-- the film except of a roll film is replaced by a relative non-sensitive face of the film, is provided with a transverse panel of radio-responsive ray-emitting material or substance, such, for instance, as phosphorescent calcium sulphide. After this the entire inner face of the paper backing, including the aforesaid panel, is coated with an opaque or light obstruct' compound, such as lamp black mixed with gelatin or many other suitable material. Thus the paper backing and the opaque coating is at a radio-responsive ray-emitting material or substance on the inner face of the paper backing."


I do wonder what it would take to make autographic paper backing again. I doubt it would happen, but an interesting thought. Here are the patents if anyone is curious:

http://www.google.com/patents/US1886053
http://www.google.com/patents/US1358990


And here's an encore patent for autographic packfilm!
http://www.google.com/patents/US1368029

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Some years ago there was a gentleman who provided roll film in several discontinued sizes. He found it almost impossible to find a suitable backing paper for his film. None of the film manufacturers would sell him any nor reveal their sources. This seems to be the main stumbling block for making your own autographic film rolls.

 

[joshgladstone]

Well yes, you would have to create the special autographic backing. That would be the entire challenge. But the patent pretty much spells out how to make it:

Take the paper backing from a roll of 120 and on the inside face, i.e. the side that touches the back of the film, and at properly spaced intervals to line up with the autographic door on the camera for each exposure, you place a panel of calcium sulphide. Then you coat that side of the entire paper backing with lamp black and gelatin, tape the film back onto the paper, and roll it back up. At least in theory, right?

Anyone want to give it a shot?

 

[Simon R Galley]

We make our backing paper available during the ULF run.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[cmacd123]

. Making backing paper at Eastman Kodak, for instance, must have been as big of a production as making the film itself.

there was one recent thread on APUG where it was revealed that one manufacturer estimates that the Backing Paper for a roll of 120 film is a greater proportion of the total cost than the photographic film itself. (Then their is the spool, the foil paper, the box and so on)

 

[removed account4]

sorry to sound like a buzz-kill

seems like a lot less hassle to take notes "in the field"
and take a piece of cellophane or velum or scotch tape or ...
carefully and legibly write ( or type ) on it , and print it ontop of the print ..
instead of burning it on the film at the time of exposure.
( i removed the number wheel from my grafmatic back the moment after
i bought it for the same reason ... the last thing i want is something printed on my negative
that i will have to eventually crop out ( i expose full frame .. ) whats the point of exposing film
and composing if you aren't going to use the whole view finder or ground glass &c
film is expensive, time spent getting to and making the exposure will never occur again
the instantaneous seconds you expose / steal to reflected light onto the film will never happen again ..
why tarnish the film area with scrawled notes that look like a digital credit card signature pad? i have
junk store photo albums from people autographic cameras, i the photographs are nice, the white scrawl ... not so much ...

while it would be a novel idea to recreate the autographic paper, seems messy but at least the lamp black and gelatin seems doable
without dying from toxic exposure to chemicals ... it might end up an awful lot of effort and not worth the hangover afterwards.

but as they say YMMV

have fun