Autochromes, unopened; still usable?

[TemperingChocolate]

Yes, the outer box's seal has been broken, but the inner box has not been opened.

The Autochrome process has been a years-long obsession of mine, and I've always wanted to recreate it. Recently, by an incredible stroke of luck, I came across two packs (4 plates each), unopened. And, well, you can't get much closer to the real thing than the real thing. Thing is, they've been sitting around for nearly a century.

Assuming the emulsion could even yield an image, there's still a number of glaring problems:

1. From what I have gathered, gauging the proper exposure for autochromes was always complicated and involved a lot of guesswork. Adding on top of that the complication of being 93 years past it's use by date, and it certainly doesn't bode well in this regard!

2. A yellow filter was required, but I believe the need for this was eliminated in the latter years of the process. I can't find where I read about it originally. Assuming this is true, would anyone know when the cutoff was? Also, the information printed on the back of the package seems to indicate that the plates are good for about ~2 years after production. So I would guess this came out of the factory sometime in 1926.

3. Chemistry. Does anyone have some info on this? Solutions, times, etc. There must be old instructions floating around somewhere.

And probably many more that I haven't thought of!

 

[nickandre]

That's pretty cool, not going to lie. To unearth the developer I think you'd just need the type of emulsion. You'll probably need substantially more exposure than originally required (the rule of thumb was 1 stop per decade but probably that doesn't hold true indefinitely). And I would assume the chemical fogging is prohibitive :/

 

[Down Under]

Use it?! Don't be ridiculous. The pack alone is worth a small fortune. List it on Ebay and clean up.

There will be a long learning curve. Google 'autochrome' and you may get information. the data must be out there. I did have a book with detailed information about the process. It is now in the Victoria (Australia) State Library, I think, as I donated it some years ago along with a collection of 'vintage' photo books I had at home.

I sill have a home darkroom and I enjoy playing with all the old processes. But this pack, I would hold on to. Or sell. It is more an investment than a user method.

Whatever you decide to do, please return in future and let us know.

 

[Wayne]

You may want to talk to ThePhotoChemist and read this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/autochromes.11665/page-16#post-2312352

 

[TemperingChocolate]

That's pretty cool, not going to lie. To unearth the developer I think you'd just need the type of emulsion. You'll probably need substantially more exposure than originally required (the rule of thumb was 1 stop per decade but probably that doesn't hold true indefinitely). And I would assume the chemical fogging is prohibitive :/

I continued digging around a bit, and found an old processing guide.

As for exposure, digging around in Lavédrine & Gandolfo's book seems to have saved the day. There is a small passage which notes that Autochromes were typically exposed for 60 times longer than the Extra Rapid plates (150 H&D). 150 H&D according to this conversion chart is ~ASA 4. So that should leave an ASA of about 1/15 for these plates (at least at the time of production).

 

[TemperingChocolate]

Use it?! Don't be ridiculous. The pack alone is worth a small fortune. List it on Ebay and clean up.

There will be a long learning curve. Google 'autochrome' and you may get information. the data must be out there. I did have a book with detailed information about the process. It is now in the Victoria (Australia) State Library, I think, as I donated it some years ago along with a collection of 'vintage' photo books I had at home.

I sill have a home darkroom and I enjoy playing with all the old processes. But this pack, I would hold on to. Or sell. It is more an investment than a user method.

Whatever you decide to do, please return in future and let us know.

I'm not sure if it's the same book, but I do have the one on the process written by Bertrand Lavédrine and Jean-Paul Gandolfo. Reading it has enlightened me to the many, many things that have to go right during production. The curve is indeed a steep one; there's so many variables and intricacies that I still haven't made it out of the planning stage (of recreation) after about 3 years now. Though I will admit, my inner perfectionist is also a big reason.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Expired for 99 years? That's some kind of new record.

Shouldn't be much fog, though -- too slow for that.

 

[maltfalc]

fix one of the plates and use it as just a screen plate in front of a sheet of modern film.

 

[Bill Burk]

I think you should treat it as a museum piece. Re-create it, but don’t shoot/develop these historical artifacts. One day someone might be able to non-destructively micro-scan the structure and color and produce a mapped “film” with the “same color grains as the real deal”. All you would do is mush it up.

 

[AgX]

It was not even intended to get into your hands.... "Exportation Interdite"

 

[AgX]

You could cut one plate into slices, exose step-wedges on them and test your process, residual film sensitivity and fogging on these.

 

[removed account4]

You may want to talk to ThePhotoChemist and read this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/autochromes.11665/page-16#post-2312352

he's also on instagram : https://www.instagram.com/amphetadreamer/

 

[ThePhotoChemist]

Hey guys! I can't say I've done this myself yet, so I can't give any concrete advice here, just some vague recommendations. I actually have a box of original 5x7 autochromes myself, bought with the intention of delaminating the emulsion and examining the screen. Luckily, I figured out my problems before I had to resort to that. I'm still on the fence about ever shooting them...

1. Don't shoot anything unless you have the original orange filter for exposing autochromes. They will look overexposed, with washed colors. I don't really have any leads on recreating the filter with modern filters/tools, unfortunately.

2. The most important part of processing is going to be the First Development. If you're looking to recreate the original Lumière FD, you will be hard-pressed to find the chemical "meto-quinone" or "Quinomet". There are published formulas that list the equivalent amounts of metol/hydroquinone that can replace it. Their earlier processing guidelines recommended pyro, but I would avoid this and stick their later MQ developers.

3. I tried using the original Lumière FDs with no success, and ended up kind of dialing in my own FD over time. Currently, it is:

• 75mL distilled water
• 25mL D-19 stock
• 5mL 5% solution of potassium thiocyanate
  

Develop for 2m30s at 65F. I have no idea how this will work on original autochrome plates, since it was designed for my plates.

4. Use a dichromate reversal bath, not a permanganate one. Permanganate is less toxic to deal with, but causes considerable emulsion softening, and is overall much more harsh on the plate than dichromate is.

5. Clear with 5% sodium sulfite. Second development can use pretty much any developer you have on hand, D-19, D-76, Rodinal... you're just looking for something to convert all the silver halide to metallic silver. I use D-19 stock.

That's pretty much all I've got, to be honest. I don't know much about the special treatment of old emulsions, so I'll defer to the advice others have given in this thread.

 

[MatthewDunn]

I think you should treat it as a museum piece. Re-create it, but don’t shoot/develop these historical artifacts.

This would be my answer as well. The package/box is absolutely awesome as is. I personally would put it on a shelf and admire it, but if you don't have a collector's itch as part of your photo hobby...

Either way, congrats on owning that. Pretty cool.

 

[railwayman3]

I'd vote to "keep it as a museum piece". I quite enjoy "messing around with old films" (my wife's description!), but anything beyond 30-40 y.o. is unlikely to be worthwhile to use, and is probably already gaining some collectable value.

 

[TemperingChocolate]

Hey everyone, sorry for my long absence; I've been pretty preoccupied with personal issues lately.

Thanks to everyone for suggestions and recommendations.

On further thought, I've decided to hold off on trying to shoot with it, for now.

However, I've recently come across 2 rolls of the more recently manufactured Alticolor film (basically Autochrome in 120 format, though I believe they replaced the starch with yeast grains). Frankly, I feel a lot more comfortable trying something with them.

I've seen one person before shoot an Alticolor roll, and it did yield an image. The results are admittedly not exactly stunning, but then again, he was pretty liberal with handling it (processing as a color negative!). I think it's worth trying to get better results by processing it the way they were supposed to be.

Also, on the topic of recreating autochromes: I think the x-factor in the original plates (or as I like to call it, the "quality without a name") was that they were produced on an industrial scale. From what I've read so many steps involved making test plates and adjusting accordingly, testing and adjusting, testing and adjusting, again and again and again... not just one time and then you're set, each batch had to be tested all over again. Doing it at home, it isn't really practically or financially viable to spend so much material just on testing. Additionally, they also had access to machinery that enabled a greater degree of consistency than most of us can accomplish at home.

In essence, the Lumieres had far more resources at their disposal.

This is why I admire those who try to recreate the process; having tried myself I can say that (for me at least) it is a Herculean task, and the results I've seen from ThePhotoChemist are truly amazing.