Autochrome Recipe from Metropolitan Museum of Art

AgX said:

To my understanding both me and Ian were wrong a bit:

Lumière called their first screen film Lumière Filmcolor, but added the designation "Portrait Film Autochrome"

The later two films were just called Lumière Lumicolor and Lumière Alticolor.

see here for Alticolor (the same for Lumicolor):
http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f72295064#enlargeimg

Click to expand...

None of us are wrong, Lumière sold both the Filmcolor and the Lumicolor films with the added designation that they were Autochrome type process films, adapted for high speed use.

That practice still goes on today where Fuji call Velvia & Provia - Fujichrome, and there are plenty of other examples.

The difference between Filmcolor and Lumicolour is the first was a sheet film and the second roll film.

Ian

Ray Rogers said:

I wonder... was the word "Autochrome" ever used the way one might use "Kleenex" or "Xerox" where a popular product name begins to be used to represent an entire group of smilar items... did "Autochrome" ever become synonymous with "color picture"?

Click to expand...

I don't see any hint at "autochrome" being used as generic for natural colour photographs.

But the same time I doubt that all random filter screen photographs designated as "Autochrome" are really such.

Slightly off-topic but maybe I can tack it on here - I've got 5 packs of unexposed Autochrome plates on their way to me, 1913 vintage, presumably the same batch no. Which is enough to do some tests to attempt to make an image - has anyone any experience of trying to process original Autochromes, and the problems encountered?

Martin, I have the Autochrome reversal developer formulae if you haven't got them already, let me know if you need them.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Martin, I have the Autochrome reversal developer formulae if you haven't got them already, let me know if you need them.

Ian

Click to expand...

Thanks Ian, I probably have them already - BJP published a monthly supplement on colour photography from 1907 onwards, I've got the bound volumes for 1910, 11 & 12. It looks like they responded very quickly to Autochrome coming on the market, and most of the content is Autochrome oriented. If there's any interest here I could PDF them, but they'll be big files, each volume is about 100 pages.

George Brown, the editor of the BJP at that time, seems to have had his finger on the pulse, he must have known people like Mees of Wratten & Wainright long before he left the UK for Rochester to set up EK Research. He also seems to have kept abreast on what was happening in the rest of Europe.

Ian

Having just looked through the BJP colour supplements, it would seem that Lumiere didn't put a use-by date on the plates for nothing - plates within a year from the expiry date were giving problems, so forget any chances of getting anything after a century. However, it will still be an interesting exercise to at least go through the motions of loading & processing, & maybe writing it up.

For the benefit of the curious, here are the instructions that came inside a box of Autochrome plates.

Anyone have the other pamphlets mentioned in this text?

Charley

A Modern Autochrome

I had posted this idea on an older thread about Autochromes, but a friendly member directed me to this more recent thread.

I have an idea that I'd really like some feedback on... I've concocted a method to (fairly) easily make a modern autochrome-esque, additive color photograph.

My method would eliminate the need to devise a complicated and archaic potato-starch reseau. However, I'm sure a lot of you autochromistes' main interest lies in creating this reseau the old fashioned way, so my method might not interest you. But for those who would just like to have a unique color photograph using additive color, this might excite you as it has me.

So, to produce a reseau by the simplest means possible, just take a picture of a white TV screen with slide film. That's it! You've got a RGB screen w/ built in lampblack, and the ability to tweak the balance by affecting tint, contrast, brightness, etc, using nothing more than the controls on your old CRT television. It would be interesting to find the optimum magnification, the optimum exposure, and so forth, but it's something that anybody could do. You just send it away for processing like normal.

So now you've got a RGB screen. Next, just *simply* attach some equally sized black and white film to the reseau, expose, reverse process, and boom, you've got a modern autochrome.

*Simply* though, I think not. The trick is in this part, and it's where my knowledge and experience breaks down. But basically, you'd need to adhere the reseau and b&w film together so that you could process the b&w & not harm the slide film.

To make the b&w emulsion accessible and w/o the need to de-register the sheets, I'm thinking to soak off the anti-halation layer and epoxy it to the slide reseau with the emulsion facing towards the open, not sandwiched inside where no chemicals could penetrate. So you'd be exposing through the reseau and base of the film.

I'm guessing that processing of the b&w would seriously harm the slide film if not protected (tell me if I'm wrong). So you'd have to coat the slide reseau with a clear epoxy, coat the edges to make sure no chemicals got inbetween the sheets, and then carryout the reversal processing.

Now.... I don't know the first thing about (a) removing the AH backing, (b) appropriate adhesives/epoxies, or (c) reversal processing. I just know that these things are possible, and I'd love to hear what people have to say regarding the feasibility of all this.

Thanks!

Chris Holmquist
holmburgers

Bertrand Lavedrine's recent book on Autochromes

Like many of you, I'm interested in recreating the Autochrome process.

Through Amazon France, I recently purchased a copy of Bertrand Lavedrine's 2009 book, L'autochrome Lumiere: Secrets d'atelier et defis industriels. It certainly appears to be encyclopedic, and it includes a how-to-do-it chapter on making the plates. Here is the URL of the book description, in French, at Amazon.fr:

http://www.amazon.fr/Lautochrome-Lu...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274815295&sr=8-6

Unfortunately, I don't know French. I discovered that the Getty Conservation Institute, a sister program to the Getty Museum, is doing a translation, currently scheduled for publication in Spring 2012. A staff member at the Getty Museum (getty.edu) told me that nothing has been translated at this point.

Do any of you have access to a translation of the how-to-do-it chapter? Even a rough, approximate translation would be of assistance. I hope that this doesn't ruffle too many feathers regarding copyright issues.

Dear Charles , You did a very good job with obtaing this book , I did not see more than 30 dollars in this 10 year time and it is only a dream to buy this book.
Happily I can say , You can translate the book easily with google translate.
Only you have to do is to go to computer seller and ask a cheap desktop scanner with a good OCR optical character recognition software.
This OCR function scan the pages and recognise the letters in to a text file . Than copy and past this text file to google translate page , select french to english and you got the translation.
my e mail is around my profil page

holmburgers said:

I had posted this idea on an older thread about Autochromes, but a friendly member directed me to this more recent thread.

I have an idea that I'd really like some feedback on... I've concocted a method to (fairly) easily make a modern autochrome-esque, additive color photograph.

My method would eliminate the need to devise a complicated and archaic potato-starch reseau. However, I'm sure a lot of you autochromistes' main interest lies in creating this reseau the old fashioned way, so my method might not interest you. But for those who would just like to have a unique color photograph using additive color, this might excite you as it has me.

So, to produce a reseau by the simplest means possible, just take a picture of a white TV screen with slide film. That's it! You've got a RGB screen w/ built in lampblack, and the ability to tweak the balance by affecting tint, contrast, brightness, etc, using nothing more than the controls on your old CRT television. It would be interesting to find the optimum magnification, the optimum exposure, and so forth, but it's something that anybody could do. You just send it away for processing like normal.

So now you've got a RGB screen. Next, just *simply* attach some equally sized black and white film to the reseau, expose, reverse process, and boom, you've got a modern autochrome.

*Simply* though, I think not. The trick is in this part, and it's where my knowledge and experience breaks down. But basically, you'd need to adhere the reseau and b&w film together so that you could process the b&w & not harm the slide film.

To make the b&w emulsion accessible and w/o the need to de-register the sheets, I'm thinking to soak off the anti-halation layer and epoxy it to the slide reseau with the emulsion facing towards the open, not sandwiched inside where no chemicals could penetrate. So you'd be exposing through the reseau and base of the film.

I'm guessing that processing of the b&w would seriously harm the slide film if not protected (tell me if I'm wrong). So you'd have to coat the slide reseau with a clear epoxy, coat the edges to make sure no chemicals got inbetween the sheets, and then carryout the reversal processing.

Now.... I don't know the first thing about (a) removing the AH backing, (b) appropriate adhesives/epoxies, or (c) reversal processing. I just know that these things are possible, and I'd love to hear what people have to say regarding the feasibility of all this.

Thanks!

Chris Holmquist
holmburgers

Click to expand...

Thats not a bad idea, photographing a high resolution CRT or LCD monitor would be better, you would have a higher resolution filter, TV resolution is very low.

Printing onto overhead transparency paper/film from an inkjet would be another way.

Anyway I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents that when I've been drying film and two wet pieces of C-41 have stuck to something or to glass and I've pulled them apart days later much of the layers go with it and rip off

So you might simply be able stick the wet processed film onto a b&w piece and let it dry.

Hey, thanks for the post. It's funny, as today I'm researching about reversal processing & preparing to buy the chemicals to try this out. Perhaps there's just something in the air today that says... *autochrome*

Letting the two films stick together like you mention is not a bad idea at all, especially for the final mounting/display step.

However, I have since revised my method outlined above with a significantly easier approach, assisted by a fellow APUGer who made some very helpful suggestions.

Namely, pin registration. This would eliminate the need to remove the AH backing as well as worrying about the b&w processing having any effect on the slide-reseau.

I still haven't taken the time to determine appropriate magnifications while photographing the TV screen, but here are some figures...

The starch grains of autochromes are said to be from 5-10 micrometers in size (.005-.01 mm) and a typical 24" CRT TV has pixels approximately (grossly approximate) 200 micrometers or .2 mms in size. So basically, I need about a 1:20 magnification, or is it 20:1? Regardless, that's easy math if I had the time & formulas in front of me, I digress. I'll be using a 180mm lens.

After I've gotten the slide-reseau processed (send away to a lab) I'm going to use a simple office hole-punch to "pin" register them. Once they're registered, tape them together securely and hopefully this sandwich will be thin enough to fit in a typical 4x5 film holder.

Figuring exposure should be easy... eventually I'll find a suitable ISO for the reversal processing & the filter-factor of the reseau can be determined simply by metering thru it. Likewise, changes in the original TV source will be important to standardize. Messing around with 'hue', 'tint', 'picture' and all that jazz found on some TV's could be very interesting and lead to a lot of flexibility, like producing a tungsten balanced reseau for instance, or creating a warmer/cooler reseau, etc.

Thanks for the bump and I hope to have results sometime (relatively) soon.

Using a resau technically puts you into the realm of Dufay Color, as that is how it was done.

And, to get a good resau, it is simple to print one onto a sheet of clear inkjet support using an inkjet printer with clear inks. I have seen a good transparency made by Mark Osterman at George Eastman House several years ago. He registered the resau with the film during exposure and then re-registered it again after processing. There was a tiny bit of color fringing IIRC due to expansion and contraction of the support. Estar would help.

PE

Yes, that's a great point. I guess it is basically a dufaycolor, perhaps more so than an autochrome. And agreed that using an inkjet would be suitable, though I'd like to think that the slide film would produce purer colors & would be easier for me, who doesn't own a good inkjet printer.

However, the inkjet will be what I use in 50 years when slide film is all but discontinued.... can we even hope for 50 years??

thnx!

Well, this is the point then. Dufay is easy to reproduce and has been by many workers, but Autochrome is hard! It is then your choice as to which you want. But lets be sure that whichever way you go, lets use the right terms for it. I'm sure that either will turn out fine once one achieves the proper film and "filter package". I use this as a generic term for either method.

PE

Since I've got your attention, could you tell me where the photo-emulsion was in relationship to the reseau and glass in an original autochrome plate? This has always puzzled me, as it seems like it would have to be sandwiched, thus making processing difficult.

Easy to do. Sheet of film/resau/ ! This sandwich was taped together in register using register pins to establish register through punch holes. Then these two sheets were placed in a holder and exposed with the resau towards the light source. The resau was smaller than the film to allow the film to fit in the holder.

After exposure, the two were separated and the film was processed. They were then remounted in register for projection. When I saw it, Mark had them as 2 sheets and he projected the B&W slide first then moved the resau over the film and you could see colors rainbow across subjects.

There is another method using 35mm where the resau is somehow mounted in front of the film but behind the focal plane shutter. In my opinion, this method would change the focal plane of the film.. The method I saw used sheet film which I believe was 4x5 or smaller.

I gave this some thought and a simple printing program in visual BASIC should accomplish making a fine resau. Marks was rather coarse.

PE

Ron ,
I am thinking inkjet RGB and more inks - like rose bengal may be - to the paper.
Does its result be different than autochrome ?

Umut

Istanbul

Well, your resau would be R/G/B in a defined pattern, and inkjet R/G/B is quite good for an additive system so it should work.

Technically, it is not the random starch grains of Autochrome with that hue, it is just about exactly like Dufay. So, they will look subtly different.

That is about all I can say from a professional POV as a Photo System Design Engineer.

PE

Magnfication, distance, focal length, numbers, errr...

Ok, so it turns out I could use some help on my magnification math. It may be "easy" as I said earlier, but for someone other than me. Basically, I'm not sure what formulas to use.

I need to make an object that is X mm in size (.05mm let's say, for now) appear as Y mm (.005-.01mm in this case) on the film. I have a 180mm lens. At what distance do I need to have my lens at to achieve this?

Thanks in advance!

update..... 1/f = 1/u + 1/v
magnfication... M = v/u

f is focal length, u is subject distance, v is lens to film distance

Is this all I need? This is embarassing, I mean, I supposedly passed calculus! You would think that this simple algebra would be a breeze...

I've realized that my discussion really doesn't belong in this thread, which should be preserved as a discussion of the historical autochrome and not my experiments with RGB-colored screens. I'm gonna make a new thread to discuss this, sorry for hijacking!!

cheers!

Problems with the Met's Research on logivity of autochromes?

The Metropolitan Museum's research indicates an extremely short life for autochromes on exhibition unless put in a low-oxygen environment during display. It's causing most institutions to determine that they should never procure or show autochromes, because they do not have that ability. But in my experience, autochromes have been relatively stable, especially when kept away from direct heat. I suspect it was their researcher Luisa Casella's method in creating "new" autochromes that caused this dye instability, since she didn't actually test historical autochromes themselves. Any one have any ideas on how stable or unstable actual historical autochromes are. I've yet to see fading in any and I've seen thousands.
Alex

I have a box of Autocrhome stero plates from nearly 100 years ago that look just fine.

They are kept in the original box. IDK how they were kept before I acquired them though.

PE

On the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s Research and the longevity of Autochromes

This is in reply to Alex Novak’s March, 2012 posting "Problems with the Met's Research on longevity of Autochromes?"

This reply is not intended as in-depth refutation. Nor should it be read as criticism of Alex Novak’s post, which no doubt accurately reflects what has been reported to Mr. Novak.

It has been standard museum practice since the early 1980’s not to display original Autochromes, primarily due to the fear of fading. Facsimiles, whether printed on paper or on translucent material have usually been put on display in place of originals. The research conducted by Luisa Casella was designed to learn whether it would be possible to display original Autochromes, if they were placed inside of oxygen-free environments. It was hoped that these anoxic enclosures would permit museums and other institutions to display original Autochromes from their collections. It is important to note that the creation of anoxic environments applies only for the continuous display of Autochromes, but not for their storage. There is absolutely no reason why museums, curators, and collectors should not continue to procure Autochromes for their collections and to view and to marvel at their unique and enchanting beauty.

A question regarding Ms. Casella’s methodology has been raised. While the design and parameters of the research are too complex to summarize in a few sentences, it is a fact that the experiments did indeed include historical samples of exposed and developed Autochrome plates as well as previously unexposed and undeveloped plates plus the dye samples created using the historic Lumiere formula. Unexposed and undeveloped Autochrome samples dating from 1908, 1910, 1912 and 1920 were tested.

Two other points should be noted: 1). The results observed and reported by Liusa Casella are based on an exposure period that can be considered the equivalent of displaying an Autochrome in a common light box, emitting 2000 lux, for 9 hours a day over a period of approximately 14 months. 2). It is important to note that the term fading only applies to the color dyes, not to the image itself. There may be some confusion if one considers fading as one does with an albumen photograph. Autochromes do not appear “lighter” as the color dyes fade; rather, the change is in the direction of a shift in the colorcast, usually toward a yellow/green cast.

As Alex Novak notes, Autochromes are indeed stable if kept in optimum temperature and humidity conditions, and protected from long-term exposure to light. The only thing required for their long-term preservation is a common sense approach. In addition to light, Autochrome plates are sensitive to moisture and heat. Prolonged exposure to light will cause the dyes in the color screen to fade; excessive moisture or humidity may cause the dyes to dissolve or migrate; and heat will cause cracking in the image layer. Thus, long-term storage requirements are no different for Autochromes than for any light-sensitive material. When Autochromes are not being viewed, they are best stored in light tight box or container. Autochromes should never be stored any place where there is excessive humidity or moisture, such as in a hot attic or in a moist basement.

Finally, it should be noted that due to Ms. Casella’s pioneering work with anoxic environments, the Met was confident enough that it permitted display of several rare and important Autochromes by Alfred Stieglitz and Edward Steichen in a January 2011 exhibition. This allowed these original Autochromes to be viewed and admired by the general public for the first time in several decades.

For additional information on her publications, please see Lusia Casella's website: http://www.luisacasella.com/?page_id=20

Mark Jacobs