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Photo Engineer, the autoignition temperature is over 400 degrees celcius. It is safe enough to handle indoors, a hot lightbulb will not ignite it. As long as you don't do it in a kitchen you will be allright. I would prefer a more controlled environment like a living room over a garden to be honest, you never know what nature will do to your reaction.. Just make sure to close the lid on the container after using it. Using deodorants is not considered dangerous either even though they can shoot flames if you put a lighter to them 
Photo Engineer, the autoignition temperature is over 400 degrees celcius. It is safe enough to handle indoors, a hot lightbulb will not ignite it. As long as you don't do it in a kitchen you will be allright. I would prefer a more controlled environment like a living room over a garden to be honest, you never know what nature will do to your reaction.. Just make sure to close the lid on the container after using it. Using deodorants is not considered dangerous either even though they can shoot flames if you put a lighter to them
Have you ever been in a flash fire from vapor ignition? Do you realize how hot a 100W light bulb can become? Try here for some data: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070220160110AASUyQk
And, I am sure that someone out there has burned a finger on a lit bulb or the base.
BTW, the open cup flash point of Ethyl Acetate is about 7 deg C and the explosive minimum concentration in air is about 2%. Reference Merck Index.
PE
The filter paper is flat and is measured in diameter. You custom flute or fold it to meet your conditions such as funnel size or flow rate.
PE
I suspect that Shaz means filter-pore size, such as in microns (or whatever).
I was just flipping through this and fyi for anybody thinking about it - autoignition temp is WAY differerent than the flash point or the fire point of the liquid. Very quickly:
Flash point - temp at which the vapors already present would flash but not sustain a flame.
Fire point - temp at which a liquid, once it saw an ignition source, was high enough to produce sufficient vapors to continue burning
Auto Ignition temp - literally spontaneous combustion, no ignition source is required.
For toluene
FLAMMABLE PROPERTIES:
FLASH POINT: 40F (4C)
AUTOIGNITION TEMPERATURE: 896F (480C)
OSHA/NFPA FLAMMABILITY CLASS: 1B (flammable liquid)
LOWER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT (%): 1.2%
UPPER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT (%): 7.1%
FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS
Vapors may be ignited rapidly when exposed to heat, spark, open flame or other source of ignition.
Flowing product may be ignited by self-generated static electricity. When mixed with air and exposed to
an ignition source, flammable vapors can burn in the open or explode in confined spaces. Being heavier
than air, vapors may travel long distances to an ignition source and flash back. Runoff to sewer may
cause fire or explosion hazard.
Personally, I wouldn't work with the shite anywhere inside my house. Think it of like working with gasoline in your basement - yikes!
Flash point - temp at which the vapors already present would flash but not sustain a flame.
Fire point - temp at which a liquid, once it saw an ignition source, was high enough to produce sufficient vapors to continue burning
Auto Ignition temp - literally spontaneous combustion, no ignition source is required.
For toluene
FLAMMABLE PROPERTIES:
FLASH POINT: 40F (4C)
AUTOIGNITION TEMPERATURE: 896F (480C)
OSHA/NFPA FLAMMABILITY CLASS: 1B (flammable liquid)
LOWER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT (%): 1.2%
UPPER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT (%): 7.1%
FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS
Vapors may be ignited rapidly when exposed to heat, spark, open flame or other source of ignition.
Flowing product may be ignited by self-generated static electricity. When mixed with air and exposed to
an ignition source, flammable vapors can burn in the open or explode in confined spaces. Being heavier
than air, vapors may travel long distances to an ignition source and flash back. Runoff to sewer may
cause fire or explosion hazard.
Personally, I wouldn't work with the shite anywhere inside my house. Think it of like working with gasoline in your basement - yikes!
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The information in post 182 is correct.
Unfortunately, one thing is omitted. Once the material flashes, the flame formed is high enough in temperature to sustain a fire if enough vapor is present, and that is the big concern here, especially with EtOAc (Ethyl Acetate). It is so volatile that enough vapor can be present to sustain a minor (or major) explosion. BTDT!
PE
Unfortunately, one thing is omitted. Once the material flashes, the flame formed is high enough in temperature to sustain a fire if enough vapor is present, and that is the big concern here, especially with EtOAc (Ethyl Acetate). It is so volatile that enough vapor can be present to sustain a minor (or major) explosion. BTDT!
PE
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Consider a 2 cubic meter room. 2 cubic meters are equal to 2000 liters. Two percent of 2000 liters is 40 liters. He would have to evaporate 40 liters of ethyl acetate for it reach 2% of air concentration. He would have to work in a very small room or with very large amounts for it to be actually dangerous.
Even if his room is full of stuff and air cannot escape or enter it, he still needs to have evaporated at least 20 liters of ethyl acetate for it to be dangerous. I'd say a 2 cubic meter room is a below average small room
I can't remember how large the bottles he own are exactly, but they are definitely below 5 liters, more like two liters maybe. (Dead Link Removed) Unless his 100W lightbulb can reach 860 degrees fahrenheit, three times as much as the 60W lightbulb in your link. 2% air concentration is a lot.
Even the 1.2% air concentration for toluene he needs to evaporate 24 liters of it in 2m^3 of air. Only 12 liters of it in 1m^3 is still at least four times as much toluene as he owns, all evaporated into the air. He needs to work with MUCH larger amounts for it to be actually dangerous. This is only relevant for large scale lab chemistry.
He simply does not own enough for it to be dangerous at all.
Even if his room is full of stuff and air cannot escape or enter it, he still needs to have evaporated at least 20 liters of ethyl acetate for it to be dangerous. I'd say a 2 cubic meter room is a below average small room
I can't remember how large the bottles he own are exactly, but they are definitely below 5 liters, more like two liters maybe. (Dead Link Removed) Unless his 100W lightbulb can reach 860 degrees fahrenheit, three times as much as the 60W lightbulb in your link. 2% air concentration is a lot.
Even the 1.2% air concentration for toluene he needs to evaporate 24 liters of it in 2m^3 of air. Only 12 liters of it in 1m^3 is still at least four times as much toluene as he owns, all evaporated into the air. He needs to work with MUCH larger amounts for it to be actually dangerous. This is only relevant for large scale lab chemistry.
He simply does not own enough for it to be dangerous at all.
I use Whatman filter papers: Dead Link Removed
I can't find my lone remaining box, since I use it so seldom, so I cannot tell you what size pore I use, not that it would mean anything in this case. You select a paper based on he smallest particle you wish to retain! So, if you have 10 micron particles, you need a smaller pore size for the filter if you want to retain them. The smaller the size, the slower the filtration. The slower the filtration the more your solvents will evaporate. If you use suction to speed it, then you get vacuum loss of solvent! And, the solvent goes down the drain too. In that case, you need a filter funnel with a given pore size or a large pore funnel with your selection of filter paper.
This is the subject of several days instruction in Organic Chem Lab 101.
PE
I can't find my lone remaining box, since I use it so seldom, so I cannot tell you what size pore I use, not that it would mean anything in this case. You select a paper based on he smallest particle you wish to retain! So, if you have 10 micron particles, you need a smaller pore size for the filter if you want to retain them. The smaller the size, the slower the filtration. The slower the filtration the more your solvents will evaporate. If you use suction to speed it, then you get vacuum loss of solvent! And, the solvent goes down the drain too. In that case, you need a filter funnel with a given pore size or a large pore funnel with your selection of filter paper.
This is the subject of several days instruction in Organic Chem Lab 101.
PE
Anoher possibility for a "glue" would be Venice Turpentine which is a resin that is soluble in alcohol. Canada Balsam is usually dissolved in a hydrophobic solvent such as toluene.
A) you have no idea what you are talking about right now....you have forgotten about the difference in specfic gravity between a liquid and a gas - which is a factor of about 1000x. I could blow the hatches off a tanker with 40L of gaseous toulene
Saftey never hurts and its only useless until somebody blows their house up because they didn't understand exactly what was being talked about - but I humbly bow out.
Saftey never hurts and its only useless until somebody blows their house up because they didn't understand exactly what was being talked about - but I humbly bow out.
You are right! But...
You could probably do it with less considering 1 mole of Toluene = 22.4 L of gas (at STP), and that will react to form several moles of oxidation products at a far higher temperature! One liter is about 10 miles or 224 L of gas without oxidation byproducts or increased temperature. Lets assume it burns to give 7 moles of CO2 and 7 moles of water (no balancing of equation here), then you have formed 14 moles of gas x 10 = 140 moles x 22.4 = ~3200 L of gaseous byproducts at room temp. Add in the temperature increase and those hatches are going to MOVE baby!
I have seen my share of lab explosions over the years that I worked as a bench chemist and have been in my share. Better safe than sorry.
PE
Ah, Mr. PE, I was contemplating figuring that out just for the fun of it but you beat me to it, sir! lol. Now I'm gonna have to console myself with the number of joules released.
Also just as a matter of correctness - I mixed my metaphor, tankers don't have hatches, per se. But it would literally rip open a ship like a tin can. But anyway - I let the topic continue.
NH
Also just as a matter of correctness - I mixed my metaphor, tankers don't have hatches, per se. But it would literally rip open a ship like a tin can. But anyway - I let the topic continue.
NH
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OP
OP
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2011
- Messages
- 88
- Format
- 35mm
Ok guys, i don't understand anything, anymay, i'm gone perfect my english 
.
Holmburgers is right when he say that i ask for the aperture like the aperture of a sieve.
Thank you holmburgers
.
Edit : Sorry PE you give the answer in the message 186....thank you .
Shaz
.Holmburgers is right when he say that i ask for the aperture like the aperture of a sieve.
Thank you holmburgers
.Edit : Sorry PE you give the answer in the message 186....thank you
.Shaz
Here is an example of fluted filter paper and folded filter paper. The description is not entirely accurate regarding the reasons for using one over the other, but the description is accurate on how it looks. The fluted paper, due to the larger surface area passes fluid more rapidly.
PE
PE
OP
OP
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2011
- Messages
- 88
- Format
- 35mm
Hello everybody,
Just some little news about my "turtle" autochrome.
Dead Link Removed
I prepare 60g of dammar. 36g for the recipient.
Dead Link Removed
I put the dammar gum in 1/2 liter of ethyl acetate.
Dead Link Removed
I think that my dammar gum got a lot of impurities ...i will see later.
Next step, i will filter (filter paper for coffee) the dammar gum and dissolve it in the toluene.
Shaz
Just some little news about my "turtle" autochrome.
Dead Link Removed
I prepare 60g of dammar. 36g for the recipient.
Dead Link Removed
I put the dammar gum in 1/2 liter of ethyl acetate.
Dead Link Removed
I think that my dammar gum got a lot of impurities
...i will see later.Next step, i will filter (filter paper for coffee) the dammar gum and dissolve it in the toluene.
Shaz
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Shaz,
I'm glad to see that you're still pursuing this!
I'm glad to see that you're still pursuing this!
.
I totally understand that... 
This thread has been a wonderful read. Full points to shaz for his persistence and effort. Have you had any progress since August?
And I know this idea is fully heretic, but please entertain me: would it not be possible to get colour photographs by replacing the layer of coloured potato starch particles (and black soot) with a sheet of Bayer pattern and then coat the BW emulsion on top of that? I have no idea whether it would be practical to try to obtain Bayer pattern filter layer from anywhere, and I would expect it to cost a lot of money, and have the wrong colours, BUT in theory you should be able to capture a colour photograph, right?
And I know this idea is fully heretic, but please entertain me: would it not be possible to get colour photographs by replacing the layer of coloured potato starch particles (and black soot) with a sheet of Bayer pattern and then coat the BW emulsion on top of that? I have no idea whether it would be practical to try to obtain Bayer pattern filter layer from anywhere, and I would expect it to cost a lot of money, and have the wrong colours, BUT in theory you should be able to capture a colour photograph, right?
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This has already been discussed - and done! It is somewhere here!
PE
PE
That's right!, R Paul used an LCD screen from a digital photo frame (at least, I guess that's like a Bayer filter).
He hasn't done much with it since, but here's an example, see post #357 -> (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
My work has been in using slide-film with a photograph of a TV screen placed in contact with panchromatic b&w film. Preliminary results have been promising but no perfect examples have been had yet. Though I've got two loaded right now, and once I get around to shooting and reversal-processing those two, I suspect I will have it made!
Where are you Shaz?
He hasn't done much with it since, but here's an example, see post #357 -> (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
My work has been in using slide-film with a photograph of a TV screen placed in contact with panchromatic b&w film. Preliminary results have been promising but no perfect examples have been had yet. Though I've got two loaded right now, and once I get around to shooting and reversal-processing those two, I suspect I will have it made!
Where are you Shaz?
I remember that Apug member htmlguru4242 did a lot of work around this a few years back. I guess the threads serve a purpose to show the problematic nature of reverse engineering.
Which does not detract from the sheer inventiveness and stubborn energy shown.
Which does not detract from the sheer inventiveness and stubborn energy shown.
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