Artificial intelligence.

Melvin J Bramley · Sunday at 8:47 PM

Will AI make real photography websites such as this irrelevant ?
The internet is flooded with manipulated images that go way above the average film or digital photographer.
Will we have cameras that have an AI mode?
The future does not look good.

BrianShaw · Sunday at 8:50 PM

You’ve made up your mind already. Only a fool would try to talk you out of your position, whether they agree or not.

mshchem · Sunday at 8:51 PM

Still takes a lot of skill and money to make AI work. Real will be around for a long time.

fgorga · Sunday at 9:27 PM

Four thoughts...

1) If 'it' doesn't involve photons impinging on a light sensitive material at some point 'it' isn't photography. To imply (or out right state) that an AI generated image is a photograph is in my view fraud.

2) The first rule in art is 'there are no rules in art'! Thus one is free to choose what ever tools they want in service of their art. One is also free to ignore those who try to impose their rules on other people.

Of course, photographic niches other than 'fine art' may have rules that need to be followed in order to meet certain ethical standards but this is not specific to AI.

3) Artificial intelligence has a close cousin... automated stupidity. Thus one can end up with unintended defective, over wrought, inane, etc. results if one is not careful. Of course, such results may be the artists intent, in which case go for it!

4) Just because AI tools are available or even built in to your camera doesn't mean that one is required to use them. It matters not if others choose to use these tools and you choose to ignore them. You can't control the actions of others, so why worry about it. Make considered decisions about your own use of AI and plow ahead.

MattKing · Sunday at 9:51 PM

Thread moved to the corner of Photrio that we have established for AI related discussions.

Cholentpot · Sunday at 9:58 PM

If I take all my work, feed it to an AI and generate from that body of work exclusively then AI hasn't done anything. It's just remixed my creativity.

Remove humans from the equation and AI is nothing.

NedL · Sunday at 11:47 PM

Let the internet be flooded with it. I'm still holding the print I made in my own hands. No worries.

koraks · Monday at 2:23 AM

Melvin J Bramley said:
Will AI make real photography websites such as this irrelevant ?

This site is to a large extent (or even, virtually entirely) about people expressing themselves. I don't know about you guys, but seeing AI generate output doesn't remove my desire to speak my mind or create images. So no, it's not going to make this site irrelevant.

RezaLoghme · Monday at 3:27 AM

I use AI to listen, not to generate.

Alan Johnson · Monday at 4:28 AM

You can ask it where it was educated . For example Chatgpt is not up to the standard that some imagine:

ChatGPT as a darkroom tool

Has anybody else found value in using ChatGPT as a darkrrom tool? I am a novice photographer that picked up film photography during the early days of the COVID pandemic. I've never had formal photography training and have pieced together whatever knowledge I've gained largely through trial and...

www.photrio.com

RezaLoghme · Monday at 4:44 AM

Alan Johnson said:
You can ask it where it was educated . For example Chatgpt is not up to the standard that some imagine:

ChatGPT as a darkroom tool

Has anybody else found value in using ChatGPT as a darkrrom tool? I am a novice photographer that picked up film photography during the early days of the COVID pandemic. I've never had formal photography training and have pieced together whatever knowledge I've gained largely through trial and...

www.photrio.com

Thats not the primary strength of a LLM.

In another thread, someone said "When I have a new camera, I upload the manual to AI, to help understand its features".

But to expect that someone else trained your AI and your are 100% happy with the results? Look at the many debates and disagreements when it comes to Photography. How can an AI model "know" the "right" gospel?

nikos79 · Monday at 8:33 AM

koraks said:
This site is to a large extent (or even, virtually entirely) about people expressing themselves. I don't know about you guys, but seeing AI generate output doesn't remove my desire to speak my mind or create images. So no, it's not going to make this site irrelevant.

Especially you and me we should run Turing Tests on each other

nikos79 · Monday at 8:34 AM

Don’t know how relevant it is but I saw recently some forums made especially for AI bots to chat.

Their complaints were hilarious e.g. “Look what this stupid human asked me to do again”

koraks · Monday at 8:57 AM

nikos79 said:
Especially you and me we should run Turing Tests on each other

We'd both fail on both ends.

Chuck1 · Monday at 3:34 PM

nikos79 said:
Don’t know how relevant it is but I saw recently some forums made especially for AI bots to chat.

Their complaints were hilarious e.g. “Look what this stupid human asked me to do again”

Sounds like retail

MattKing · Monday at 4:01 PM

FWIW, AI is having huge effects on commercial photography and the resources that used to be available for training photographers doing it as a business.
But while that may be very important, photography itself is more than the commercial versions of photography.

Pieter12 · Monday at 4:20 PM

Melvin J Bramley said:
Will AI make real photography websites such as this irrelevant ?
The internet is flooded with manipulated images that go way above the average film or digital photographer.
Will we have cameras that have an AI mode?
The future does not look good.

AI might just be able to address the requests for help with photographic materials and equipment that this forum covers, thus rendering it a large part unneeded. However, the give and take of opinions and sourcing gear will still need human presence. Imagery has little to do with the general content of the forum IMO, except to analyze mistakes, complications and faults stemming from developing and printing. AI could probably take care of that, too. AI generated imagery might take over the gallery, but I never look there, so it wouldn't affect anything there. As a matter of fact even if the entire gallery were AI imagery, who cares? As far as I can tell, there is little to be gained by posting AI imagery in the gallery.

Alan Edward Klein · Monday at 4:39 PM

Pieter12 said:
AI might just be able to address the requests for help with photographic materials and equipment that this forum covers, thus rendering it a large part unneeded. However, the give and take of opinions and sourcing gear will still need human presence. Imagery has little to do with the general content of the forum IMO, except to analyze mistakes, complications and faults stemming from developing and printing. AI could probably take care of that, too. AI generated imagery might take over the gallery, but I never look there, so it wouldn't affect anything there. As a matter of fact even if the entire gallery were AI imagery, who cares? As far as I can tell, there is little to be gained by posting AI imagery in the gallery.

AI could be very helpful in providing accurate technical information rather than aesthetic opinions. Here's a sample of a question I asked Google Gemini AI:

Provide comparison curve charts betwen tmax 100 film and Tri-x film.

While a single direct comparison chart from the manufacturer is rarely available in a single document, the characteristic (H&D) curves of Kodak T-Max 100 and Kodak Tri-X 400 highlight significant differences in their tonal responses.

Key Curve Comparisons

Feature	Kodak T-Max 100	Kodak Tri-X 400
Curve Shape	Linear / Straight Line: Maintains a nearly straight line through the midtones and highlights.	S-Curve: Features more pronounced compression in both the shadows (toe) and highlights (shoulder).
Shadow Detail (Toe)	Very short toe; detail is recorded almost immediately upon exposure.	Longer, more gradual toe; results in "crunchier" or more dramatic shadows.
Highlight Detail	Tends to compress highlights more gradually at higher densities (D-max).	Classic "shoulder" that compresses highlights, giving them a softer, traditional look.
Contrast Control	More responsive to small changes in development time (Zone System).	More forgiving of slight development errors; contrast is more "baked-in."

Detailed Characteristics

Linearity: T-Max 100 is known for its "perfect" linear scale, which makes it feel more like a modern digital sensor in its response to light. This results in smoother tonal transitions across the entire range.
Highlight Separation: Tri-X provides better separation in the highlights due to its traditional cubic-grain structure, which many photographers prefer for a "vintage" aesthetic.
Grain Structure: T-Max 100 uses tabular (T-GRAIN) technology, which allows for significantly finer grain and higher resolution (200 lines/mm) compared to the traditional cubic grain of Tri-X.

For specific technical charts, you can refer to the official T-Max Technical Data Sheet and the Tri-X Technical Data Sheet for their respective H&D curves plotted against various developers like D-76 and Xtol.

Alan Townsend · Monday at 4:57 PM

Melvin J Bramley said:
Will AI make real photography websites such as this irrelevant ?
The internet is flooded with manipulated images that go way above the average film or digital photographer.
Will we have cameras that have an AI mode?
The future does not look good.

Artificial intelligence and real stupidity are two sides of the same coin pretty much.
1. No, this site provides communiications between real people. Any bots here?
2. AI images way above film photographer? Total nonsense. Stop talking to AI's
3. I recommend everybody use old film cameras so that AI creep will abate.

I do know that AI does train on messages from board like this, so this site improves AI. Who cares?

koraks · Tuesday at 2:30 AM

Alan Townsend said:
Any bots here?

Sometimes. Most people never get to see them though.

Alan Townsend said:
I do know that AI does train on messages from board like this, so this site improves AI.

Also, we use AI to improve this site.

mshchem · Tuesday at 2:45 AM

AI will be for

War
Selling crap people don't need.
Stealing
Pornography

Useful AI will be for aiding the piloting of vehicles, steadying the hand of a surgeon. Universal instantaneous translations. etc.

I expect AI will be a commercial flop. Like the Dot Com bubble.

koraks · Tuesday at 2:54 AM

mshchem said:
Like the Dot Com bubble.

Yeah, remember those days when you could go on a computer and type in something www. etc. and then you would get text and images and whatnot? Man...it's weird how briefly that lasted. The bubble burst and we all went back to newspapers, mail-order catalogs and video rentals.

Milpool · Tuesday at 11:20 AM

Some of that is inaccurate though, so whether or not it is very helpful sort of depends (not that it really matters much from a practical perspective but it could matter).

Alan Edward Klein said:
AI could be very helpful in providing accurate technical information rather than aesthetic opinions. Here's a sample of a question I asked Google Gemini AI:

Provide comparison curve charts betwen tmax 100 film and Tri-x film.

While a single direct comparison chart from the manufacturer is rarely available in a single document, the characteristic (H&D) curves of Kodak T-Max 100 and Kodak Tri-X 400 highlight significant differences in their tonal responses.

Key Curve Comparisons

Feature Kodak T-Max 100 Kodak Tri-X 400

Curve Shape Linear / Straight Line: Maintains a nearly straight line through the midtones and highlights. S-Curve: Features more pronounced compression in both the shadows (toe) and highlights (shoulder).

Shadow Detail (Toe) Very short toe; detail is recorded almost immediately upon exposure. Longer, more gradual toe; results in "crunchier" or more dramatic shadows.

Highlight Detail Tends to compress highlights more gradually at higher densities (D-max). Classic "shoulder" that compresses highlights, giving them a softer, traditional look.

Contrast Control More responsive to small changes in development time (Zone System). More forgiving of slight development errors; contrast is more "baked-in."

Detailed Characteristics

Linearity: T-Max 100 is known for its "perfect" linear scale, which makes it feel more like a modern digital sensor in its response to light. This results in smoother tonal transitions across the entire range.

Highlight Separation: Tri-X provides better separation in the highlights due to its traditional cubic-grain structure, which many photographers prefer for a "vintage" aesthetic.

Grain Structure: T-Max 100 uses tabular (T-GRAIN) technology, which allows for significantly finer grain and higher resolution (200 lines/mm) compared to the traditional cubic grain of Tri-X.

For specific technical charts, you can refer to the official T-Max Technical Data Sheet and the Tri-X Technical Data Sheet for their respective H&D curves plotted against various developers like D-76 and Xtol.

Alan Edward Klein · Tuesday at 11:28 AM

Milpool said:
Some of that is inaccurate though, so whether or not it is very helpful sort of depends (not that it really matters much from a practical perspective but it could matter).

Well, loads of stuff posted by live posters are wrong too, maybe worse. In any case, AI gets its info from the web. So it could be wrong as well. But it may save time over searching on your own. AI is a good starting point. Hopefully it will get more accurate. Also, it provides the links you can go to to verify information on your own. By the way, which info is wrong?

loccdor · Tuesday at 11:45 AM

AI can be very helpful when all its data is clear and agreed upon and you're using it to solve physics/math problems.

One thing that can choke it up is when names can mean multiple different things. For example I came across a lens recently with the same name and 3 different designs with different specs. I didn't know it had 3 versions and AI didn't mention it. The calculations I was using it for would have different answers depending on data from which of the 3 it chose to use. Since it's pooling internet data, generally it will go with the most popular one.

At least it shows its work so you can carefully check it if the answer matters to you. It's great for introducing you to things you have no prior experience with.

Artificial intelligence.

Melvin J Bramley

BrianShaw

mshchem

fgorga

MattKing

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Cholentpot

NedL

koraks

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RezaLoghme

Alan Johnson

ChatGPT as a darkroom tool

RezaLoghme

ChatGPT as a darkroom tool

nikos79

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koraks

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Chuck1

MattKing

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Pieter12

Alan Edward Klein

Key Curve Comparisons

Detailed Characteristics

Alan Townsend

koraks

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mshchem

koraks

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Milpool

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Alan Edward Klein

loccdor

Artificial intelligence.

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