Article on William Eggleston - let's discuss

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Theo Sulphate

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...
I am always disturbed by the feeling that I am being had. That the movers and shakers of Photography are really all about creating a vocabulary and priesthood to interpret for us the progress and validity of photography, in exchange for which we give power and money back.
...

An eloquent statement. It captures feelings I've had about some forms of painting and "artists".

I like some of Eggleston's work. I do see subtle and not so subtle touches that are appealing. Other images, not so much.

Perhaps a sort of double blind test could be done: randomly take 100 of his photos and mix them in with 100 photos made by children. If the High Priests can select his with a significantly higher than 50% success rate, then they have some credibility.
 

mynewcolour

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I've never seen an Ansel Adams image that moved me. There you go, I said it (just to spite all of you buggers up thread who can't see Eggleston's talent and clear influence on modern culture).

When I found William Eggleston's work it had a profound effect. I felt like he had spent his life taking the pictures I wanted to see. Not every image is dynamite but *nearly* every image is. Few other photographers get close to that for me. Philip Lorca Dicorcia and Lise Sarfati get close.

We just had Eggleston's portraits exhibited in London. It was frustrating. It felt like a forced selection. But still brilliant.

I don't pretend to know what W.E thinks but I gather he's not really big on talking about the photos. What would be the purpose? I'm reminded of this reading the article in the opening post.
 
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mynewcolour

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An eloquent statement. It captures feelings I've had about some forms of painting and "artists".

I like some of Eggleston's work. I do see subtle and not so subtle touches that are appealing. Other images, not so much.

Perhaps a sort of double blind test could be done: randomly take 100 of his photos and mix them in with 100 photos made by children. If the High Priests can select his with a significantly higher than 50% success rate, then they have some credibility.

It's all about the collection/book and the body of work. One image on it's own never means much. Scatter the work amongst random images and each image is weakened. Even great renaissance epics benefit from context (the politics, the money, the times).

You'll really hate this.
http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/exhibition/wolfgang-tillmans-2017
 
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Plagiarize much Eric?

At first pass I had similar impressions however I have spent some time with them now. I see where they are an insightful style that puts a frame around this environment at the time. I think they speak on several levels, it just takes a bit to get beyond the mechanical photography approach and see into them. At least that's how I see it.

Further, it’s dangerous when everyone starts thinking in the same way—there is no controversy, no friction between peers. Without friction, we all become static and boring. I feel that the collective group of photographers out there aren’t putting their own brush strokes into their work. We aren’t capturing an idea, rather just a moment, thusly it's sometimes hard to stop and search for the idea in someone elses work.

The majority of us are camera operators, obsessed with settings and techniques instead of focusing on concepts and our own unique vision. So what’s the meaning behind your work? Where does your camera end, and your idea begin? Were does Eggleston's camera end and his idea begin?



From Petapixel, yesterday. https://petapixel.com/2017/02/13/photographer-just-camera-operator/

"It’s dangerous when everyone starts thinking in the same way—there is no controversy, no friction between peers. Without friction, we all become static and boring. I feel that the collective group of photographers out there aren’t putting their own brush strokes into their work. We aren’t capturing an idea, rather just a moment.

The majority of us are camera operators, obsessed with settings and techniques instead of focusing on concepts and our own unique vision. So what’s the meaning behind your work? Where does your camera end, and your idea begin?"


I suppose this isn't adding to the discussion either?
 
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Eric Rose

Eric Rose

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Indeed, in the true spirit and tradition of academics everywhere lol. I meant to give attribution but my smartphone foo is lacking. And yes it did add to the discussion. I sure hope you feel satisfied with your sleuthing. Try and elevate a discussion and there is always someone to take it back down in the gutter. Do us all a favor and put this thread on ignore will you. Frankly I expected more from you Patrick as I quite enjoy your photography.
 
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Indeed, in the true spirit and tradition of academics everywhere lol. I meant to give attribution but my smartphone foo is lacking. And yes it did add to the discussion. I sure hope you feel satisfied with your sleuthing. Try and elevate a discussion and there is always someone to take it back down in the gutter. Do us all a favor and put this thread on ignore will you. Frankly I expected more from you Patrick as I quite enjoy your photography. Taking shots at people I guess is your thing.(Deleted the rest out of respect for the participants in this thread)

There you go. I gave the attribution for you. I even added the quotes and the highlights to the parts you copied and pasted! You should thank me.

What shots am I taking? You claim you want a cerebral discussion, but you plagiarized the hell out of that post. I just pointed it out. As I said in my response to your pm, the language was bizarre so I noticed it immediately when I read the Petapixel article a few minutes later. Attacking me for pointing it out is seriously low class.

And I am glad you enjoy my photographs. I make them all myself. :smile:
 
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Eric Rose

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Score 10 points for Patrick! He has won the day. I'm glad I have given you a chance to pounce and somehow give purpose to your life.
Thanks for adding the attribution for me as I said I intended to. And yes I should have figured out a way to get it in there after the edit feature timed out but alas I didn't. Bad Eric, bad.

Now if we could get back on track that would be appreciated. Patrick if you have anything to say that is relevant to the discussion of Eggleston's images I look forward to reading them.
 

mshchem

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I saw some of Eggleston's prints in London over Christmas. My wife is a curator at the University of Iowa. She dragged me all over. I must say the idea of "democracy of the camera" appeals to me. Maybe film is more democratic than digital? ?? The dye transfer prints were lovely. I am not totally sure if it was composition or just the subject matter? I loved the prints, one of the highlights of the trip for me.
Best Regards Mike
 

pdeeh

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Some with the fancy sprinkles after their names like to poo poo anyone who doesn't use their language
But the curious thing is, I never see this anywhere.

Quite the contrary in fact, people who have spent a lifetime sometimes studying and trying to understand art, provide new insights or a different way of thinking about it are constantly denigrated as "ivory tower academics" or have their writing dismissed as "meaningless" or are called "so-called experts".

All too often, someone attempting more than the most superficial reading of an artist's work, or using language that is above kindergarten level, is treated as if they are somehow frauds, out to cheat and dupe the poor uneducated rubes (who, by contrast, with their plain speakin' and literalism, are seen - by themselves I suspect - as experts in the "real")

Yet the weird thing is, no-one blinks an eye when physicists or cosmologists or chemists describe their work in ways that are, almost literally, incomprehensible to someone without a doctorate in the relevant discipline. The argument then goes, presumably, along the lines of "oh well that's about real things, real science, art isn't like that" ... to which my riposte is, well OK, now explain to me why art isn't like that, and why it is wrong to think about art in theoretical ways. But nobody ever does.

Even more incomprehensibly, there seems to be some assumption that artists go about their business in some sort of mystical way, that they do their work as a result of some sort of upwelling of transcendent wooziness; whereas the most cursory reading on the history of art reveals movement after movement of artists who write manifestos, books, pamphlets, create extraordinary theories about art, declare the end or the future of painting or sculpture or photography, whose own libraries are jammed with books on philosophy, psychoanalysis, and history, who start magazines and invite critics to debate with them ... it goes on and on (and not just in the modernist period; one only has to look at Leonardo's diaries and notebooks to see that, and he wasn't alone. Think of the invention of perspective in western art - it didn't happen by accident.)

All the professional artists I know (and I know painters, performance artists, sonic artists, musicians, dancers) have a very clear set of ideas and understandings that they are expressing, and they are all extremely well-read and well-educated people, many with "fancy sprinkles" after their names too.

If artists can be bothered to think properly about their artistic practice, then it seems to me fantastically arrogant to assume that superficiality and ignorance is somehow advantageous for the people who are looking at the products of that practice (or reading it or whatevering it).
 
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removed account4

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As much as I like his color palette, I just wish I didn't have to have a graduate degree in art theory to properly appreciate Eggleston's photographs.

you don't have to have any degree to like or dislike, or to appreciate something.
what you have stated is like suggesting in order to appreciate answell aadsms one really has to have a large format camera,
or to appreciate karsh's portraits, one need to have a background in rembrandt+theatre lighting
i like sushi, and i never spent 6 years mastering the art of making rice ...

your post was great pdeeh !
 
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warden

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But the curious thing is, I never see this anywhere.

Quite the contrary in fact, people who have spent a lifetime sometimes studying and trying to understand art, provide new insights or a different way of thinking about it are constantly denigrated as "ivory tower academics" or have their writing dismissed as "meaningless" or are called "so-called experts".
...
If artists can be bothered to think properly about their artistic practice, then it seems to me fantastically arrogant to assume that superficiality and ignorance is somehow advantageous for the people who are looking at the products of that practice (or reading it or whatevering it).

I snipped a bunch of your post for the sake of brevity of my response, but want you to know I enjoyed every word of it. Thank you.
 

pdeeh

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Thanks.
Important I think for me to emphasise that I don't think art can only be understood through complexity, or that people who aren't well educated can't have a legitimate opinion or response to art.
What bugs me is the inverted snobbery of those who insist that intellectual thinking about art is somehow bogus, and revel in their own superficiality.
 

mynewcolour

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+1 pdeeh

IMHO studying *insert artistic discipline here* probably doesn't help you enjoy it more. It does help you talk about it and it certainly changes your taste. Suspicion of education is quite sad.

I get that W.E isn't for everyone. The beauty is obvious to me. Others don't see it.

Much of the confusion centres around the texts that accompany Eggleston's pictures and it being read too literally.

For example:
'his work is snapshot or snapshot in style'

It is not EQUAL to a snapshot by just-anyone: the images are subtly beautiful, selected and gathered masterfully (subjective), they are presented with high production values by known galleries and publishers (less subjective). This hugely change their meaning.

The photos are LIKE snapshots RELATIVE to gallery art that preceded it. Like Warhol a broken-convention has become his stereotype.

As a STYLE 'snapshot' gives the work a familiar pulp fiction quality, like handheld cine or action squences in the movies. There is a lot in his composition that also points to story telling.
 
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faberryman

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you don't have to have any degree to like or dislike, or to appreciate something.
what you have stated is like suggesting in order to appreciate answell aadsms one really has to have a large format camera,
or to appreciate karsh's portraits, one need to have a background in rembrandt+theatre lighting
i like sushi, and i never spent 6 years mastering the art of making rice ...
I think not. There is a difference between liking something and appreciating it.

Aside from the color palette, I am not drawn to Eggleston's work and don't see what all the fuss is about. I have read several academic works explaining it, and they sound like rationalizations to me. Perhaps I just don't get the critical theory, and if I were more erudite, all would be clear.

Perhaps this would be a good time to discuss artist's statements. I haven't seen one from Eggleston, and think in the vacuum the academics have supplied them. He's probably pretty happy with them. Most artists' statements I have read, and not only in photography, strike me as pure fantasy. It's like someone said, a photograph is like a joke; if you have to explain it, it's probably not very good. And I'm not completely uninformed; I took half a dozen art history courses in college covering medieval to contemporary, and visit museums and galleries regularly, in addition to having done photography for over 40 years.
 
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mynewcolour

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I'd actually recommend reading nothing about Eggleston. As pointed out - he offers no rationale. Just look through any of the books.

Even the early black and white stuff is brilliant.
 

removed account4

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I think not. There is a difference between liking something and appreciating it.

Aside from the color palette, I am not drawn to Eggleston's work and don't see what all the fuss is about. I have read several academic works explaining it, and they sound like rationalizations to me. Perhaps I just don't get the critical theory, and if I were more erudite, all would be clear.

Perhaps this would be a good time to discuss artist's statements. I haven't seen one from Eggleston, and think in the vacuum the academics have supplied them. He's probably pretty happy with them. Most artists' statements I have read, and not only in photography, strike me as pure fantasy. It's like someone said, a photograph is like a joke; if you have to explain it, it's probably not very good. And I'm not completely uninformed; I took half a dozen art history courses in college covering medieval to contemporary, and visit museums and galleries regularly, in addition to having done photography for over 40 years.

we are all entitled to our own opinions ..
i don't think one needs to have anything explained to them
in order to enjoy / apprecaite or understand it at a personal level.

i've never heard or read the statement about photography being like a joke .
its too bad that people think that way. i've always tried to have an open mind, not a closed one when
it comes to looking at something that someone else created. obviously there is a more of an understanding
through shared experience/deeper connection, but that isn't necessary to appreciate/like something ...
 

faberryman

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Advertising — uses typically text + photo Photojournalism the same. Is this 'poor communication'?
Advertising? I thought we were talking about fine art photography. Photojournalism? Do you need a treatise to appreciate HCB's work for example?
 

faberryman

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we are all entitled to our own opinions ..
i don't think one needs to have anything explained to them
in order to enjoy / apprecaite or understand it at a personal level.
I think you are conflating enjoying with appreciating. I agree that one does not need an explanation to enjoy something. Explanation may allow you to appreciate something you don't enjoy. With Eggleston, I'm struggling with the explanation toward appreciation.
 
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mynewcolour

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Advertising? I thought we were talking about fine art photography. Photojournalism? Do you need a treatise to appreciate HCB's work for example?

You were telling us what 'a photograph' was like.

Even fine art photography exists in galleries and books but never in a vacuum. The words, and graphic design, the world it exists in ... all matters.

Regarding HCB's photojournalism: HCB isn't even a good example to support your notion - nearly all the images are more powerful if you know something of where / who is pictured.

You don't see only with your eyes!
 

faberryman

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You were telling us what 'a photograph' was like.

No I wasn't.

Even fine art photography exists in galleries and books but never in a vacuum. The words, and graphic design, the world it exists in ... all matters.

Obviously.

Regarding HCB's photojournalism: HCB isn't even a good example to support your notion - nearly all the images are more powerful if you know something of where / who is pictured.

HCB's images are understandable without a treatise. The Decisive Moment has an introduction, but it need not be read for an appreciation of his work. Each image is not accompanied by an explanation, and requires none.

You don't see only with your eyes!

Again, obviously.

Now back to Eggleston's images.
 
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