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ntenny

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Because in the end it's not about who has the longer d---, but how well our tools can serve us.

I'm sorry, that attitude isn't allowed on the internet... :smile:

Seriously, well said, but perhaps orthogonal to the point that brought megapixels into the discussion in the first place. It's not unreasonable to consider the question "What if film didn't have a resolution advantage?", and megapixels (given appropriate context) are a perfectly good metric for resolution.

Of course, there are lots of things that can be said about photographic images apart from resolution, and then there are aspects of the analog-photo processes that aren't strictly related to the final image (like the smell of fixer), but I don't think resolution is an inappropriate topic to think about. It's just a silly one to get *obsessed* with.

-NT
 

keithwms

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Michel, I understand and fully support your assertions! My point (3) above is where all the creative interest lies, I think. The other stuff is just numbers. Art that can be broken down into numbers is not art, it's science.

It's not unreasonable to consider the question "What if film didn't have a resolution advantage?", and megapixels (given appropriate context) are a perfectly good metric for resolution.

Not to start a big argument, but I disagree with that, actually. It's not perfectly good at all. In fact, megapixel count is not an appropriate measure of actual resolution except in the rather limited case of low ISO and optimum aperture. But that little niche is not where most of the world does their photography.

* at low ISO, film kicks ass. Sure, drum scanning a 35mm slide to 22mp is a reasonable thing to do. But at higher ISO it's not recording nearly that much actual information from the subject. So, in other words, the ISO (or let's call it gain if you don't mind) and corresponding signal-to-noise ratio has a lot to do with how much actual information is captured.

* real lenses have limitations, and these are quite strongly aperture (and technique!) dependent. It is certainly possible for a recording medium (be it film or a digital) to exceed the resolution of the lens... and the converse is also possible too, of course. So we have to think in terms of the whole system when discussing resolution. If film users weren't going on and on about film MTF in the 70s and 80s, then why should they discuss megapixels now? Because that's how the market wants us to think?

* Even if we did try to think of resolution in terms of megapixels, the resolution of a digital sensor goes as the square root of the pixel count. E.g., a pixelated sensor with ~double the resolution of an 8 mp digital is not 16mp, it is in fact a whopping 32 mp. Hence the format advantage, when you consider the engineering issues and such. I know that you know that, and everybody here knows that, the point is that some people still equate megapixels with resolution without considering the math. There are smart digital shooters who've known that for, oh, a decade or more. We shouldn't equate shooting digital with complete ignorance of optics. Educated people know about photosensor size and signal-to-noise and antialiasing and Bayer interpolation and all that; frankly, nobody with any credibility in digital imaging talks up their megapixel count anymore. It'd be like me telling an indoor sports shooter that my velvia 50 demolishes their 800 speed print film in terms of resolution. Not sensible.

Bottom line, as film users, we should be particularly resistant to speaking megapixels because that language is even less appropriate for film than it often is for digital. That's my point. That's why I would seek to ban the word :wink: (tongue in cheek, of course)

Hope no one takes offense at my strong terms- no offense is intended :rolleyes:
 
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ntenny

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If film users weren't going on and on about film MTF in the 70s and 80s, then why should they discuss megapixels now? Because that's how the market wants us to think?

Oh, surely not. Why, that sort of assertion would be *cynical*!

I agree with everything you wrote. I don't doubt that there are some people who use their tools with such consummate precision that the theoretical limitations of specific components are significant constraints on their results; I don't know about you, but I'd faint with astonishment if I ever saw myself becoming one of those people!

-NT
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Keith, don't worry, I'm not slamming you with the heat of words! :smile: I was about to point that (3) is probably the most important matter, but then I got sidetracked by something at the office.

Thanks for the other comments about s/n v. pixels &c, it clarifies a few things for me.
 
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I use film because I like it. I feel that this is enough of an explanation and feel no need to go further into why I like it. A lot of people wouldn't really get it. :smile:
 

Joe VanCleave

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Michel, I enjoyed your essay, and it spoke to me especially about the sequential aspect of a strip of film. It's interesting that the development of the 35mm still camera format derives from the motion picture medium. And the aspect of time, whether broken or sequential, seems an important part of 35mm photography.

On this point of the origins of a medium affecting its attributes and usage modes I am reminded of television being derived from radio technology, hence the sound aspect of TV becomes crucial; often the audio production requires a greater degree of production value than the visual. Conversely, cinema is derived from theatre, hence the reason why cinema is more visually-oriented, and also perhaps why silent film works as well as it does as a medium, as compared to, say, silent TV.

As for 35mm being, literally, a film strip, I have enjoyed exposing rolls of transparency film in my half-frame Olympus Pen D; I then request of the lab to keep the roll intact after processing, rather than cutting and slide mounting the images. These fiilm strips are then capable of being projected, via my old cassette-tape-equipped film strip projector. The images literally retain their temporal context as a sequence.

Thanks again for the thoughtful essay.

~Joe
 
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One_DaveT

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Michel, your essay reads like someone trying to rationalize shooting 35mm. Why do you feel the need to do that? Your arguments for 35mm read like weak fluff that are too easy to counter. I think you miss the most important reason for shooting 35mm. Just because you like to. This is a valid reason. You don't need to justify it to anyone.

enjoy,
Dave
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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I wouldn't feel the need to rationalize 35mm if other people were not feeling the need to present it as useless, obsolete, or behind in the race. I've added some comments about the article in this thread, which should help to exemplify the points I'm making.
 

AutumnJazz

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I was just thinking about what your article said today. I had gone to MoMA, and seen so many people just snapping away with digital cameras, when I only went through one roll of Fomapan and a few shots of Kodachrome. And then I had talked to someone about why film is better than digital, and talked about how you don't have that instant feedback, the dynamic range of film, the grain, etc.

I really liked your article.
 

Paul Goutiere

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I wouldn't feel the need to rationalize 35mm if other people were not feeling the need to present it as useless, obsolete, or behind in the race. I've added some comments about the article in this thread, which should help to exemplify the points I'm making.

The only thing that would really upset me would be that film would become difficult to get, or worse...completely unavailable. Therefor extolling the virtues of film and buying it is very important.

I'm a little tired of film being presented as an anachronism, let alone 35mm.

Please "rationalize" as much as possible.
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Xenu, I'm truly glad it stuck in your mind ; Paul, I won't shut my trap, I promise!
 

jmcd

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mhv,

I found your essay well considered and thought provoking, and I think it will help me explore some questions I have been formulating and contemplating. The photo illustrations add to the whole piece. Thanks for making the essay available.
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Jmcd ;

Thank you for the kind words!
 

gregrudd

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Good article! I like the way you have tackled this by saying the film is part of the process and adds character to scene and helps you focus on creating better art.
 
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Michel Hardy-Vallée

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Yes, Kevin, I am a man of biased opinions. I would hate to be representative of something else than myself! :wink:
 

arigram

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Wow. Pretty well like a complaint on my racial outlook from Hitler or ethical advice from the Tonya Harding School of Business. Thank you for your participation, Christopher... it's meant so much. Same for you, 'J' and Keith. So sad.

And Arigram, you really need to jump in with some more unsubstantiated insults, lies or whatever, or your amusemsnt will end. < Plonk. >

Splendid!
I give it to you, you have a real talent there and
I am happy to see you aren't letting it waste!
Unfortunately I can't be part of the show, I am mere
spectator.
You have my sincere applause though.

your faithful fan,
with lots of admiration,
Aristotelis
 

Ole

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Now that Hitler has been invoked, it's time to close this thread.
 

Ole

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Thread reopened after heavy-handed moderation. :wink:

I liked the article, by the way. :smile:
 

ricksplace

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Ole. -what does loketrette/loketretta mean? BTW-thanks for the heavy handed moderation. This sure needed it.
 

Ray Heath

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moderation? butchery? why bother? those who followed the thread are aware of what transpired, now it looks like heavy handed censorship
 

keithwms

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I kind've slightly agree with Ray; why not simply take all those posts and move them into a new thread entitled "Here we go again." Those posts were simply off topic.

I guess now I have to say it again, since my last post was deleted: Michel, I really appreciated your article and your perspective of 35mm rollfilm photography as a unique way of seeing.
 
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