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Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

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Lachlan Young

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That makes me assume you've never used Ansco 130.

The more accurate statement is that you haven't used D163 (without the errors of oral history misremembrance) and are assuming yourself more knowledgeable than the research teams of Kodak, Ilford, Agfa etc, all of whom could and would have used glycin in print developers, if it actually had any real effects visible in blind print testing. On the other hand, Phenidone and derivatives do have useful effects that are clearly visible, and can be exploited through optimal PQ ratios, and modified through powerful restrainers like 1-Phenyl-5-Mercapto-Tetrazole. If it had been necessary, these manufacturers would have outright synthesised specific developer components (and there's Ilford patents from the 1990s that hint rather strongly at possible reasons why the Harman Warmtone developer has not made it back to the market yet, and why the MSDS is a bit unclear).

It isn't particularly difficult to get what people with very limited experience imagine can only be possible with 130 with other developers using very conventional ingredients.
 
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Don_ih

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On the other hand, Phenidone and derivatives

But there's no phenidone in D163. It's an MQ developer - not much different from Dektol. I don't assume I know more than the Kodak, Ilford, Agfa researchers. Glycin has a problematic shelf life and is difficult to dissolve - it's not a great powder to have mixed into an off-the-shelf (or by-the-barrel) developer (which are the types of products those researchers were interested in).

It isn't particularly difficult to get what people with very limited experience imagine can only be possible with 130 with other developers using very conventional ingredients.

There are plenty of people with very extensive experience that think Ansco 130 gives them something they can't get from anything else. I'll refrain from responding appropriately to your particularly condescending way of phrasing that.

Incidentally, D163 seems to have been marketed mainly as a tropical paper developer.
 
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djkloss

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Well I gotta promote the other guy. I use Fomatone MG-WT-132 fibre and if you do it right - it's beautiful. No green cast. I use Moersch SE2- WT developer 1:20 and well, I guess it depends on whether you are after the Paul Strand blacks and whites and midtones aka Ansel Adams look, or the soft creamy pictorial on silver gelatin look. I prefer the warmtones I can get with the Fomatone/Moersch. If I can figure out how to upload without making the images too big or too small I'll post a few. I read every word and tested the print exposure/developer combinations that Wolfgang Moersch suggests and wouldn't trade it for anything. But thats just imho.
 

Chromium VI

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Is this a good paper for Carbro?

I heard someone that used it for Bromoil. It has a really delicate emulsion, once I printed a portrait on this paper, and a person that saw me put the paper on the rack just lift it by the corner, the emulsion was completely removed by the finger. I guess it should work well for carbro/ozobrome (I've been willing to try for some months).
 

Paul Howell

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I use a standard fixed with hardener with Foma FB papers, don't have issues with emulsions peeling or flaking off. If you use a rapid fixer might be worthwhile to add a hardener.
 

Lachlan Young

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I use Fomatone MG-WT-132 fibre and if you do it right - it's beautiful.

For those who care about print materiality (which is a different thing from those with visions of magic papers from a past that never was), it's spectacular. And it bleaches, tones etc very well. I just wish there was enough demand to coat it on the base colour of 532. Same with Retrobrom's base colour, though I understand the desire to pay tribute to papers of the past that had a connection with Sudek and the like.

The Harman made Bergger warmtone semi-gloss is also very good in a similar-ish vein. The Harman made WT that was done for Moersch was also excellent, but seemed to suffer from an audience who apparently stamped their feet (or who were going to stamp their feet, no matter what, and never intended to buy it anyway) that it wasn't an exact replica of Polywarmtone.

Compared to only having Record Rapid/ Portriga in 3-4 grades and a few 'portrait' type papers in a single grade, there are some considerably more flexible papers on the market now.
 

DREW WILEY

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It would seem that an added hardener would make SpotTone etc dye retouching and spotting more difficult (??)
 

Chromium VI

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It would seem that an added hardener would make SpotTone etc dye retouching and spotting more difficult (??)
I do sometimes use Formalin Hardner (be careful, is very toxic), sadly here in Portugal chrome alum is almost impossible to find, and formaldehyde is very cheap and readily available. It does add some strength to the emulsion, and wouldn't use it if I'm planning to spot, but it doesn't turn gelatin into plastic, nor makes it impossible to work on.

Also, here in Portugal, paper selection is very small, and I've always worked with I had on hand, and could afford. I do have preferences, but when I don't have the results I'm hopping for I can use reducers, toners, intensifiers to get near there. Also, I know with what I'm working with and plan my photos on that. I would trust that most papers made nowadays are of very high quality (FB or RC) and in any case, and if you do careful processing and have good preventive conservation practices, images will outlast our lives with very little or no change at all. That's just my opinion about papers, and I'm sure that there will be other opinions out there (that I do respect, and I will learn new things from them).
For me, if it allows you to work with your tools, and just doesn't turn all crazy in a few years, it's fine paper.
 

Alan Townsend

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I’d love to hear how people are dealing with the current landscape.
Are you happy with the available papers? Have you found workarounds? Or are you feeling the same sense of loss for those older, magical surfaces?

Looking forward to your thoughts.
We just need to go back another 70 years or so and DIY whatever alt process paper we want. Yes, we need to enlarge our negatives to contact size so do this sparingly with only our best works. So called carbon printing is the cadillac with the most linear response of any paper and widest choice of image and ground color, since it's made DIY. Cyanotypes, VanDykes, Kalitypes and other printing on water color paper processes for true matte surfaces and gelatin free printing. Sky is the limit for DIY.
 

djkloss

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For those who care about print materiality (which is a different thing from those with visions of magic papers from a past that never was), it's spectacular. And it bleaches, tones etc very well. I just wish there was enough demand to coat it on the base colour of 532. Same with Retrobrom's base colour, though I understand the desire to pay tribute to papers of the past that had a connection with Sudek and the like.

The Harman made Bergger warmtone semi-gloss is also very good in a similar-ish vein. The Harman made WT that was done for Moersch was also excellent, but seemed to suffer from an audience who apparently stamped their feet (or who were going to stamp their feet, no matter what, and never intended to buy it anyway) that it wasn't an exact replica of Polywarmtone.

Compared to only having Record Rapid/ Portriga in 3-4 grades and a few 'portrait' type papers in a single grade, there are some considerably more flexible papers on the market now.

I do remember the Chamois 542, but never tried the 532. Nothing ever came close to the Foma Chamois, so when I found the 132 I switched to that. The Ilford Art had an egg shell sheen which i didn't care for.
 

Lachlan Young

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But there's no phenidone in D163. It's an MQ developer - not much different from Dektol. I don't assume I know more than the Kodak, Ilford, Agfa researchers. Glycin has a problematic shelf life and is difficult to dissolve - it's not a great powder to have mixed into an off-the-shelf (or by-the-barrel) developer (which are the types of products those researchers were interested in).



There are plenty of people with very extensive experience that think Ansco 130 gives them something they can't get from anything else. I'll refrain from responding appropriately to your particularly condescending way of phrasing that.

Incidentally, D163 seems to have been marketed mainly as a tropical paper developer.

D-163 is very different from Dektol, specifically in the MQ ratio. The coincidences it has with Ansco 130's formula are far too close to be really coincidental, especially once you read some of Levenson's work about how to go about developer formulation - the differences are in the amount of preservative and restrainer (which is a matter of taste anyway). There was likely a request (for whatever reason) sent to Kodak Ltd in the 1940s for a direct Ansco 130 substitute that didn't involve getting tins of it across the Atlantic.

Compared to what Frances Hamer was doing in organic synthesis at Kodak Ltd at the time, synthesising Glycin would have been incredibly easy (and indeed was offered by Kodak as a packaged chemical). The fact that Kodak Ltd did not choose do so, suggests that the conclusion was reached that within an MQ type developer, Glycin simply acts like a greater volume of HQ (but with a larger margin of error at the formulation step, and/ or the relatively craft based approach to formulation before KRL and others heavily scientised it and linked it to much more rigorous blind print testing), so there was little point in adding a specialist component that was doing the same job as a standard one.
 

DREW WILEY

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Or maybe those Kodak people knew that glycin powder doesn't have a very long shelf life, even though it can do some interesting things (but NOT just like more HQ ! - been there, tried that... added to the debunked list).
 

Don_ih

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D-163 is very different from Dektol, specifically in the MQ ratio. The coincidences it has with Ansco 130's formula are far too close to be really coincidental

D163 diluted for use is very similar to Dektol diluted for use except for the added hydroquinone. It was marketed for tropical use.

If Ansco 130 could have been made by adding more hydroquinone instead of adding glycin, the people at Ansco would have likely figured that out. Their claim is that "It gives rich black tones with excellent brilliance and detail. Ansco 130 provides unusual latitude in development and is clean-working even with long developing times." No claim about working at higher temperatures.

Did Ansco/Agfa ever actually sell cans or packs of 130?
 

Lachlan Young

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the people at Ansco would have likely figured that out

They were in the region of 10 years behind Kodak, going by some of the accounts that have been published. Kodak, Ilford etc had more significant in-house synthesis capacity (and interest), Agfa (and by extension, Ansco pre-1941) seemed rather reliant on being intimately linked to the German chemical industry. Post-1945, this changed, and most of the manufacturers in the west invested heavily in acquiring much more significant in-house capabilities.

Or maybe those Kodak people knew that glycin powder doesn't have a very long shelf life

Agfa/ Ansco managed to get the stuff to survive OK in 130 packaged in tins. If Glycin really made a difference, you can bet that Kodak would have found a way to make it cheaper and better protected from oxidation. They were very, very aware of all the cult chemicals that the garden shed formulators obsess over today (Glycin, Pyrogallol, Catechol, Amidol), and none of them were really up to the job that the fanciful home formulators of the very late 20th century imagined them to be. Kodak used them (pyrogallol and catechol) where they made a meaningfully functional difference (if something less toxic wouldn't do the job - and in some cases only persisted in doing so because the less toxic alternatives had not been commercialised due to ending basic research on the particular product line), and nowhere else. There were some much more complex customised organics that do seem to have been of interest, but overall, without massive expenditure on synthesis, the reality is that PQ can do a huge amount, it just requires a precision that may be lacking in home formulation, and in commercial terms, the developer had to appeal to the largest market possible - thus ratios that might be worth exploring for specific outcomes, might be dismissed as not commercially viable.

And, like with Henn's contemporaneous work at Eastman Kodak, who in formulating D-23/25/ Microdol had realised that there were no special/ toxic ingredients needed to make very fine grain development a safe reality, Levenson at al seem to have realised that there was no point in adding extraneous (and readily available) components whose functions merely equated to approx 50% greater quantity of HQ.

For the record, Levenson seems to have been the specialist in the characteristics of superadditivity (and where it fails).

D163 diluted for use is very similar to Dektol diluted for use except for the added hydroquinone. It was marketed for tropical use.

It is probable that it was formulated to replace supplies of Agfa/ Ansco 130 (pre-expropriation in 1941, where do you think the money was flowing to?) that was being used in the UK sphere of operations with tropical climates. Kodak Ltd later marketed it in preference to Dektol for a long time.

And it wasn't because of a lack of Glycin supply. May and Baker were using it in some of their developers (and they had given up on researching products using it by the mid 1950s too, going by the patent record).

The only real outcome that is important is that differences in the ratio of Metol/ Phenidones to source of semiquinones can make some degree of visually significant differences in print tone (but not enough for Eastman Kodak to have chosen to market D-163 - but they did produce a variety of other commercial developers than Dektol in the post WW2 era). Before making assumptions about similarity to Dektol, the M:Q ratio is what matters (which was one of the key insights of Levenson's work). That has essentially apparently long been understood by the mainstream of the industry and not adequately communicated outside. Possibly because it's not very marketable to the easily influenced if your developers don't contain anything other than Metol/ Phenidones and HQ/ HQMS/ Ascorbate.

For those who want to experiment, Levenson disclosed useful M:Q and P:Q ratios (including for Dimezone S) and their relevant pH ranges.
 

chuckroast

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They were in the region of 10 years behind Kodak, going by some of the accounts that have been published. Kodak, Ilford etc had more significant in-house synthesis capacity (and interest), Agfa (and by extension, Ansco pre-1941) seemed rather reliant on being intimately linked to the German chemical industry. Post-1945, this changed, and most of the manufacturers in the west invested heavily in acquiring much more significant in-house capabilities.



Agfa/ Ansco managed to get the stuff to survive OK in 130 packaged in tins. If Glycin really made a difference, you can bet that Kodak would have found a way to make it cheaper and better protected from oxidation. They were very, very aware of all the cult chemicals that the garden shed formulators obsess over today (Glycin, Pyrogallol, Catechol, Amidol), and none of them were really up to the job that the fanciful home formulators of the very late 20th century imagined them to be. Kodak used them (pyrogallol and catechol) where they made a meaningfully functional difference (if something less toxic wouldn't do the job - and in some cases only persisted in doing so because the less toxic alternatives had not been commercialised due to ending basic research on the particular product line), and nowhere else. There were some much more complex customised organics that do seem to have been of interest, but overall, without massive expenditure on synthesis, the reality is that PQ can do a huge amount, it just requires a precision that may be lacking in home formulation, and in commercial terms, the developer had to appeal to the largest market possible - thus ratios that might be worth exploring for specific outcomes, might be dismissed as not commercially viable.

And, like with Henn's contemporaneous work at Eastman Kodak, who in formulating D-23/25/ Microdol had realised that there were no special/ toxic ingredients needed to make very fine grain development a safe reality, Levenson at al seem to have realised that there was no point in adding extraneous (and readily available) components whose functions merely equated to approx 50% greater quantity of HQ.

For the record, Levenson seems to have been the specialist in the characteristics of superadditivity (and where it fails).



It is probable that it was formulated to replace supplies of Agfa/ Ansco 130 (pre-expropriation in 1941, where do you think the money was flowing to?) that was being used in the UK sphere of operations with tropical climates. Kodak Ltd later marketed it in preference to Dektol for a long time.

And it wasn't because of a lack of Glycin supply. May and Baker were using it in some of their developers (and they had given up on researching products using it by the mid 1950s too, going by the patent record).

The only real outcome that is important is that differences in the ratio of Metol/ Phenidones to source of semiquinones can make some degree of visually significant differences in print tone (but not enough for Eastman Kodak to have chosen to market D-163 - but they did produce a variety of other commercial developers than Dektol in the post WW2 era). Before making assumptions about similarity to Dektol, the M:Q ratio is what matters (which was one of the key insights of Levenson's work). That has essentially apparently long been understood by the mainstream of the industry and not adequately communicated outside. Possibly because it's not very marketable to the easily influenced if your developers don't contain anything other than Metol/ Phenidones and HQ/ HQMS/ Ascorbate.

For those who want to experiment, Levenson disclosed useful M:Q and P:Q ratios (including for Dimezone S) and their relevant pH ranges.


The problem with this "analysis" is that it utterly misses Kodak's intent in those days. They were interested in absolute reliability and repeatability at large scale for professional photographers and photofinishers. They therefore left considerable margins in the formulations to maintain stability in storage and consistent behaviours. Engineering is always a tradeoff between time, cost, and quality, and Kodak was a subject to those forces as was any other firm.

But one only has to read the declassified Bridgehead/NRO report to understand that Kodak were more than capable of esoteric processes like "cult" chemistry, stand development et al when they wanted to push the technology to its limits.

All technologies typically have an asymptotic curve in which 80% of the results can be achieved in a fairly direct way, but the last 20% requires excruciating attention to detail, fiddling, and tuning to take that technology to its limits.

It's the difference between building a Ford Fiesta and a La Ferrari.

You prefer Fords? There's a place for that to be sure. But some of us are seeing if we can figure out whether that photographic Ferrari can be found. Snidely dismissing "garden shed formulators" using "cult chemicals" not only utterly misses the point, it is unnecessarily unkind to a lot of serious workers here not to mention confrontationally puerile and ill mannered. You might consider your tone ... (Your input is otherwise quite interesting and possibly useful to us garden shed types.)

P.S. I have five decades of hard core engineering behind me. I am well aware of the technology asymptotes and the tradeoff decisions required to climb them.
 
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Don_ih

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For those who want to experiment

So, have you used Ansco 130? You never said.

And - anyone - does anyone have evidence Agfa or Ansco sold commercial packs of Ansco 130? I can't find a single thing about it. Agfa sold Glycin - I can find ample evidence of that. But nowhere is there an image of a package of Ansco or Agfa 130.
 
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