are black and white photographers vain, all this talk about archival image making

[cowanw]

Well I would argue with an MFA unless I were doing an exam marked by them. After all one expects an academic to be, well, academic. Talbot says he invented his initial process in 1835 and announced it in 1839. This was a salt print paper negative, or photogenic drawing, which was a printing out process. By 1849 he had recognized the latent image and announce a completely different process, the Calotype, a paper negative which was a developing out process. The positives were made using his earlier process, the salt print, although they were called transfers in the 1840's. The word Talbotype was used in place of the word Calotype in 1841, to emphasize the patent ownership of the process.
I suppose it is possible if a calotype negative is printed on a salted paper print that it might be descriptively called a calotype print or a salt print and a talbotype, or anything else one may wish to call it. However if one really wants to communicate properly one needs to use words that have a common meaning. Once the concept of "a word means precisely what I choose it to mean", then in order to communicate one must find others who agree with your meaning of words; a difficult hurdle.
a calotype negative with a albumin print or a silver gelatin print may as easily be called a calotype as well.
It is not just the confusion of naming. Calotype positive prints of calotype negatives were made and are very different looking from salt prints made from calotype negatives. Even if most people do not care, an MFA academic teacher should care!

 

[Bill Burk]

I have no trouble identifying a “Rayotype” when I see it.

 

[Bill Burk]

hi, its me, the OP of this old thread....
i still archivally wash everything, i still perma wash everything i still take care and do things right ... probably out of habit not vanity ...and when i
make retina prints and sun prints if i open the dark drawer 1 month or 1 year or 1 day later and the images are still there on the paper i am secretly happy they didn't vanish

I just don’t want to worry about cross-contamination... Also giving test strips the full treatment gives me spotting palettes.

As for densitometer geekery, for Father’s Day I asked for another Marshall Studios densitometer and I am restoring it today. When it opens, I will be running to the hardware store for a new electric cord and light bulb.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

... I've read several books about the history of paper: "Paper, paging through history" by Mark Kurlansky is a good one....

Thanks for the reference; I will look for it.

...
...
funny thing is, 25-30 in jet prints labelled and boxed
with the index, and sketch map and cd of images takes up more space than 25-30 4x5 contact prints and 4x5 films, sketch and index.
...

Where are these items actually stored? Would it be too extreme to imagine an underground vault, dark and cold, something to withstand a social apocalypse?

By the way, nice avatar.

 

[jtk]

i am aware of the issues at the habs office ( having submitted habs jobs for nearly 30 years )
they do not accept digital files for several reasons
1. a digital 4x5 or 8x10 back is prohibitively expensive, and they want unmanipulated files, not photoshopped dslr files.
2. the digital medium is still in its infancy and it is not archival and they don't want to lose files important to our national heritage.

currently they accept film and silver prints and / or film and ink jet prints on a special paper.
state and local planning departments SHPO offices mostly accept digital files and ink prints
not because they are archival ( although the claims they are archival came out 30 years ago
just like the 1st gen ink prints ) but it is mostly a space saving exercise.

funny thing is, 25-30 in jet prints labelled and boxed
with the index, and sketch map and cd of images takes up more space than 25-30 4x5 contact prints and 4x5 films, sketch and index.

feel free to call the habs office in DC, they might be able to shed more light on the archival permanence of digital files, their staff is well trained and knowledgeable.
you can also call the LOC and ask the folks there, as well as the new england document conservation center and see what they say.

good luck with your files!

Sorry to have to point this out : HABS et al are merest government agencies. They have zero to do with archival storage of images produced by "normal" , commercial, or artistic photographers.

Who actually thinks a government agency should store our images? Who actually WANTS that? Sounds very Soviet.

Most of us are aware of the potentially eternal nature of "photos" stored on line, such as those posted daily in Media...and Facebook.

That anyone (such as a government agency) stores images and documentation intended to be "archival" in boxes, and has trouble scanning 8X10 film speaks for itself. Sony can quickly and easily do the job without wasting cardboard boxes.

For context: the first goal of the Human Genome Project was expected, by government agencies like HABs et al, to take over a decade. It turned out that a single multizillionaire was able to beat that expectation without taxpayer money within three years. He had electricity, indoor plumbing, and computers... and wasn't burdened by government employees.

 

[faberryman]

Who actually thinks a government agency should store our images? Who actually WANTS that? Sounds very Soviet.

The Library of Congress is a national treasure.

 

[eddie]

HABS is a project to document the history of this nation. As such, the government is probably the best choice for storage and distribution of the images. If it were done privately, no doubt visual documentation of our history would be monetized a la Getty.

 

[Bill Burk]

HABS is a project to document the history of this nation. As such, the government is probably the best choice for storage and distribution of the images. If it were done privately, no doubt visual documentation of our history would be monetized a la Getty.

Ah yes, a friend's daughter was photographed by a Getty photographer... Her mom can't just print them out. I think they wanted 80 dollars apiece for her to have pictures of her own daughter.

 

[jtk]

Ah yes, a friend's daughter was photographed by a Getty photographer... Her mom can't just print them out. I think they wanted 80 dollars apiece for her to have pictures of her own daughter.

So sad! The evil of capitalism strikes again!

Why couldn't that photographer have been a taxpayer-paid government drone?

 

[jtk]

HABS is a project to document the history of this nation. As such, the government is probably the best choice for storage and distribution of the images. If it were done privately, no doubt visual documentation of our history would be monetized a la Getty.

I see! So you've learned this nation's history from the government via HABS? I foolishly thought I'd learned history by reading accounts by actual historians... private citizens !

 

[jtk]

The Library of Congress is a national treasure.

No doubt! And I'm sure you visit it regularly. Some historians do use Library of Congress... sometimes, but the good ones rely mostly on university libraries and original sources.

 

[faberryman]

I see! So you've learned this nation's history from the government via HABS? I foolishly thought I'd learned history by reading accounts by actual historians... private citizens!

None of whom did anything remotely like HABS. It is beneficial to get your history from a variety of sources. Tends to give you a more balanced view.

 

[jtk]

HABS is a project to document the history of this nation. As such, the government is probably the best choice for storage and distribution of the images. If it were done privately, no doubt visual documentation of our history would be monetized a la Getty.

Maybe it'd be more useful if Google ran it.

How much do you personally use that government archive? I'd trust the New York Times a lot further.

 

[eddie]

I see! So you've learned this nation's history from the government via HABS? I foolishly thought I'd learned history by reading accounts by actual historians... private citizens !

Actually, the value of what HABS is preserving will be more useful in coming years. The photos will be available to historians far into the future, without having to pay Getty et al for access to the material. Those "private citizen historians" will benefit from the efforts.
I do see why you're so smug on the subject, though. As a vocal acolyte for the " superiority" of digital, the fact that HABS may not agree with your position must be abhorrent to you.

 

[Sirius Glass]

This lecture was presented at the 3D Digital Documentation Summit held July 10-12, 2012 at the Presidio, San Fransisco, CA.

Archive of Digital Data for HABS, HAER, and HALS

"The NPS creates a variety of documents and records, such as inventory and monitoring plans, drawings, photographs, and conservation treatment records, to assist in the planning, management and preservation of cultural resources. Most of these, including many of 3D digital documentation products, are permanent records under the NPS Records Retention schedule, requiring the NPS to preserve them in some form. In addition, under NPS Director’s Order 19, cultural resource management records are mission critical, required for the management of the cultural resources within our parks, and must be permanently preserved. Programs such as HABS/HAER/HALS create large amounts of electronic data, such as point clouds, CAD files, and digital field photographs that constitute valuable field data permitting the verifiability of the final documentation.
Electronic records, particularly laser scanning and imaging technologies, present long-term preservation and storage challenges. Even technologies that allow for a file format with an open standard, such as a point cloud conversion to ASCII, are still problematic because of inadequate IT infrastructure within that does not facilitate storage, migration and retrieval of digital data. Moreover, the Library of Congress (LOC), which houses traditional print HABS/HAER/HALS documentation and is the sole repository designated in the National Historic Preservation Act for engineering and architectural documentation produced for Sections 106 and 110 compliance, has collections policies prohibiting proprietary software and storing of data directed at a limited audience that would prevent the inclusion of many of the products being discussed at this summit.
Despite on-going efforts for several years, resolving these issues has proven problematic. The LOC and HABS/HAER/HALS are jointly exploring born digital equivalents to large-format film photography that is currently required to meet Secretary of Interior Standards, but the lack of standards within the commercial photography community as well as the high cost of large-format digital capture and storage makes writing standards difficult. Likewise, the lack of industry standards for technologies such as laser scanning, and the reliance on proprietary software and file formats, discourages the LOC from accepting these files into its collections. Because of this, HABS/HAER/HALS uses laser scanning as a tool to create traditional print drawings on vellum or mylar that can be permanently preserved at LOC, rather than producing laser scans as an end product in and of itself. HABS/HAER/HALS also is consulting with the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) to determine if some of these file types can be preaccessioned into the Electronic Records Archives (ERA). Currently the file formats that can be preaccessioned are extremely limited, but we hope that NARA can accommodate more in the future. With no other public repository for these files, NPS has few alternatives but to maintain its own digital records and confront the technological and financial challenges this presents. NPS has no IT preservation system in place to prevent the gradual decay of storage media over time and the corruption of electronic files, also known as bit rot. Creating a digital storage system modeled on Open Archive Information System (OAIS), which runs file integrity checks to guard against data loss, would require a significant investment in infrastructure and money at a time when the NPS is facing a multi-billion dollar maintenance backlog for its historic structures.
In sum, 3D digital documentation can produce some exciting products that were not previously possible, but we must recognize that the challenges associated with digital preservation put all of these products at risk unless we find solutions that permit their responsible and economical curation and preservation."

In other words (maybe), this government agency is unable to store certain images digitally because it lacks the technical capability and is burdened by government regulations and it's own existing (2012) limited awareness and practices.

In 2012 (when this doc was written) it wasn't even aware that Sony would for theatrical presentation (not just popular distribution) digitize Lawrence of Arabia, revealing startlingly more detail than could be seen in the distributed 70mm prints.

The solution to "bit rot" involves multiple backups on multiple media (HD, tape, thumb drives, DVD, cloud etc etc) tc...but govt agencies are stuck with regulations and political interests that prevent obvious solutions. As well, of course, they avoid the most obvious solutions, which boil down to mass distribution.

That does not solve the problems of memory with memory decay if the media is not refreshed, change of operating systems, change of storage format, ... . Search the APUG archives for reams of information on the lack of digital archive-ability. Also look at the loss of the Moon Surveyor Photographs taken before the first Lunar landing due to lose of computer tape players and the types of computers that could run the software. Yes we all know that Micro$oft never changes any formats.

 

[removed account4]

Sorry to have to point this out <...>

i am well aware of who runs it and what it does, how to and who to submit to and the requirements ...

HABS is a project to document the history of this nation. As such, the government is probably the best choice for storage and distribution of the images. If it were done privately, no doubt visual documentation of our history would be monetized a la Getty.

yup, but also measured drawings and technical research papers &c

 

[NB23]

The Habs are the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

chemical based black and white photographers are fixated on a lot of things
from getting beautiful full scale images, to the perfect combination of grain and sharpness and bokeh
to getting positive vibes from using old and new beautiful cameras that could probably be in a museum somewhere
but they are also fixated on archival quality of images.
some say if procesed correctly a black and white fibre ( and maybe rc ) prints can last 500 years.
unless the images are in a public or private archive or museum why do we care if our photographs are able to last hundreds, or some say close to 1000 years.
are we vain ? are our photographs that interesting that they will dodge the dumpster and make it to the future ?

im guilty of some of the things ive mentioned, i like using old junk cameras, i like making photographs i like to make
and some of them make it to the library of congress or state archives, some of it to a pile on the darkroom shelf,
even though theyare archival i am not quite sure teh ones on the shelf will dodge teh dumpster.

why do you make archival photographs ?

photographer's fade before their photographs do but 500 years is very optimistic. a well-processed B&W photograph ,however, should have a life expectancy(LE) of roughly 100-200 years in excellent storage conditions; the art is not to make it last long; the art is to make it worth looking at it for that long and there is no recipe for that!

 

[Bob Carnie]

The Habs are the Montreal Canadiens.

I hate the Habs

 

[removed account4]

photographer's fade before their photographs do but 500 years is very optimistic. a well-processed B&W photograph ,however, should have a life expectancy(LE) of roughly 100-200 years in excellent storage conditions; the art is not to make it last long; the art is to make it worth looking at it for that long and there is no recipe for that!

words of wisdom !
yeah, that is why i should ditch all those test prints and strips if i haven't already, they have no business being saved !

 

[michr]

Why this talk of the archival qualities of properly fixed and toned black and white photographs? Because photographers who use film and print in the darkroom are still digging for something to distinguish their preferred process from digital imaging and printing. That's all. They don't spend much time talking up the archival qualities of color prints for instance.

An image stored digitally can be reprinted at any point in the future. Prints made in the future might even look better than those made today due to advances in printing technology. Since this is information being stored instead of an artifact, it's conceivable, but unlikely, that a digital image could last until the heat death of the universe.

 

[eddie]

The Habs are the Montreal Canadiens.

But I’m a N.Y. Rangers fan.

 

[NB23]

Uea

But I’m a N.Y. Rangers fan.

But they’re not the habs

 

[Bob Carnie]

Both teams stink in my opinion... now lets go leafs.

 

[removed account4]

T
Where are these items actually stored? Would it be too extreme to imagine an underground vault, dark and cold, something to withstand a social apocalypse?

i don't know the particulars but as far as i know the library of congress in the national archives.

By the way, nice avatar.

thanks !